Ed. Note—The opinions expressed during this conversation reflect those of the participants and the participants only. This conversation does not necessarily reflect the opinions of Complex Media. This month, City Guide's Lauretta Charlton and Julian Kimble discuss interracial relationships (with a special guest), being black and writing about racism, and Don Lemon.
[Former Complex editor Ernest Baker wrote a piece for Gawker about being a black man who dates white women. It went viral and triggered a firestorm of criticism. Fellow writer Brian Padilla of Mass Appeal joined in on our conversation.]
Lauretta: Okay, so here I am talking to two black men about dating white women. This is all kinds of crazy. Yo, are white women better looking than black women? LOL.
Brian: HAHAHA.
Lauretta: Speak now or forever hold your peace.
Julian: Of course not.
Lauretta: But...
Brian: Yeah, you're wild for that. But nothing.
Julian: That's not to slight the Ivory Queens, either.
Lauretta: LOL Ivory Queens. Dead. Where do we Nubian Goddesses fit into the equation?
Brian: I don't think Ernest ever said that white women were better looking. He simply talked about his tastes and experiences.
I only feel a responsibility to be aware of the stigma of European features and beauty standards being superior, and how that's bullshit.
Lauretta: Right. He did say that all of the black women at his high school wanted thugs and he wasn't about that life, so he went with white girls.
Julian: I don't want to talk about Ernest when he's not here because I know him, but I'll say this: he never indicated a preference.
Lauretta: No shots. No shots.
Julian: I know black men who have only dated white women and I know white girls who only date black dudes. Sometimes, it just is what it is.
Lauretta: For me, look, I've dated all kinds of flavors, but do we think that there are social ramifications that we as black people need to be aware of when dating out of our race?
Brian: There's so much history behind it that it never just is what it is. There are definitely ramifications.
Julian: Agreed. We have to be aware because there's always that stigma that white is right.
Lauretta: Okay, so that was my concern with his essay. He was like, I just do this, and there's nothing more to it. He seemed to acknowledge that being a black man dating a white woman carried an enormous amount of weight with it. But he wasn't able to understand the fact that being a black man who DOESN'T date black women also has a different set of social concerns. Does that make sense? They are not one in the same.
Julian: I feel like being in interracial relationships is a burden. This, of course, coming from a man who's never dated a white woman. You're going to get dirty looks. I've received dirty looks for simply going to lunch with white women. 
Lauretta: Truth.
Brian: Wait, how so? So I'm the only one who's dated white here? Interesting.
Lauretta: I've dated white. I've tasted the vanilla. I just went there. Whatever.
Brian: Lol.
Lauretta: Julian, why haven't you dated a white woman? Because you don't want some black woman coming up to you and making you feel bad about it?
Julian: To be perfectly honest, Lauretta, that has something to do with it.
Lauretta: Do you feel a responsibility to your race?
Julian: I only feel a responsibility to be aware of the stigma of European features and beauty standards being superior, and how that's bullshit. I can remember being in middle school, having white girls like me, and the icy looks I would get from the black girls.
It's definitely not like I don't find white women attractive, though. If Iggy Azalea—who I called "scrum-diddly-umptious" a few weeks back—walked into the room right now, I'd certainly take notice.
Lauretta: Oh snap! Really?
Julian: Yeah. Initially, I was like "The fuck, do y'all want me to do?" Then I thought about why they might be bothered.
Lauretta: That's funny. I remember thinking that I was inherently less attractive than white girls because of my skin and hair. It was a super painful time.
Brian: That's crazy.
Lauretta: I KNOW. (I'm obviously super fly.)
Julian: And that's the stigma working it's black magic, no pun intended.
Brian: Right. Lauretta, where are you from?
Lauretta: I'm from California. It's white out there.
Brian: Right, right. I can't say that I noticed looks ever until I was in high school and at that point I wasn't really concerned. It was a problem once I became an adult. Like, actually taking women out.
Lauretta: Well, from my perspective as a black woman who has dated white men, there is a guilt there. There is a sense of wanting to maintain a black family and the importance of teaching black history and teaching the black experience.
He seemed to acknowledge that being a black man dating a white woman carried an enormous amount of weight with it. But he wasn't able to understand the fact that being a black man who DOESN'T date black women also has a different set of social concerns.
Julian: It's definitely not like I don't find white women attractive, though. If Iggy Azalea—who I called "scrum-diddly-umptious" a few weeks back—walked into the room right now, I'd certainly take notice. I wouldn't break my neck because I'm too seasoned for that, but I think I've been burdened by my conscience.
Brian: I like your point about maintaining a black family, Lauretta. My mom married a white guy after leaving my father, so interracial relationships were the norm to me at a very young age.
Julian: That's interesting. Here's another thing that I've always thought about: the way I'd be received by a white family.
Lauretta: Ooof. Awkward.
Brian: That's easily the best part, dog.
Lauretta: Brian, speak to that. What happens when you meet the white parents?
Brian: Literally. My girlfriend in high school, her mother always tried to cook something I would like, like fried chicken.
Lauretta: SHUT. UP.
Brian: Traditional African dishes. I swear.
Lauretta: LMFAO.
Julian: Wow.
Brian: So that shit was hilarious.
Lauretta: Watermelon salad with feta and mint.
Brian: Like, I couldn't even be mad.
I'm aware of the past, and I'm aware that it may seem like I'm dating Becky because she's a trophy, but I REALLY fuck with Becky on a personal level. And defending that constantly is infuriating.
Julian: Funny enough, I know white women who can cook the shit out of fried chicken.
Lauretta: Dyyyyying. But do they ever accept you, Brian? Or is there always this lingering, unspoken hatred?
Brian: Honestly, I think they did. Maybe a large part of that was because I had a white step father who was super involved in our community. But from girlfriend's parents I felt somewhat accepted.
Lauretta: Black or white community?
Brian: White.
Lauretta: Interesting. So I grew up in a white suburb. So did Brian, and so did Ernest. Julian, yourself?
Julian: There was like one white family on my block. Two, I'm sorry. I went to a predominantly white school in Philadelphia.
Brian: I went to school in a white suburb, but I very much lived in the city. And my stepfather was a teacher in that city SUBURB.
Lauretta: I think there's something to be said about that. The way we are conditioned by our surroundings. For me, I grew up going to BBQs where they played Billy Ray Cyrus. THE. FUCK.
Brian: Hahahaha.
Lauretta: It's real.
Brian: Nobody plays Billy Ray Cyrus at BBQ's.
Lauretta: I went to pool parties and was like, "OMG, my hair. They are going to make fun of me because of my hair."
Brian: Lol.
Lauretta: It wasn't until I was older and my dad was like, read this book about black soldiers in Vietnam that I was like, WHAT THE FUCK?! Why do I feel inferior to these fucking people? And to an extent, if you are black and do not acknowledge that we live in a culture that thinks black people are inferior, you're part of the problem. You can't be glib about the inherent racism that exists in this country—especially if you date outside of your race.
Julian: That feeling of inferiority is really something.
Lauretta: Point is, while I would LOVE to say we can make these decisions about who we date in a vacuum, I do not believe that.
Julian: I never felt inferior, and I was raised to make sure to let motherfuckers know that I'm not. Which has gotten me into trouble because sometimes I went a step too far.
Brian: Haha. Ditto.
Lauretta: I agree, but I also think it's different for black women in America, but that's a different conversation. But, we are reminded everyday that blacks don't have the same opportunities as whites in the country. Just read the newspaper.
Julian: We definitely are. Just yesterday, I was walking through a neighborhood with million-dollar condos wearing an Oxford shirt and this white girl in dirty Vans was looking at me all sus.
Lauretta: !!! :(
Brian: Of course we are.
Lauretta: It sucks, though.
Julian: I'm so used to it at this point.
Lauretta: But is it enough to just do you? Like, do black people have a responsibility to look out for each other and continue to talk about how fucked up it is to be black in America? I think that's why the essay got a lot of people mad. It seemed to dismiss a lot about racial and identity politics. Sure you can argue that love and politics have nothing to do with each other, but I do not feel this way.
Julian: I didn't read it that way, though. He acknowledged the stigma. I don't think it has to be as black and white as you're making it. No pun intended.
Brian: Yeah, he definitely did. However briefly, he did.
Julian: You can be black, date outside of your race and still be fully-aware of how the world views you.
Lauretta: Agreed. But that's what was off about his piece to me. He seemed to be OK compartmentalizing his blackness, if that makes sense.
Julian: I don't think he did, though.
Brian: Yeah, I didn't get that at all.
Julian: What I got is that if you date outside of your race, people look at you like you're that type of black man.
Lauretta: Okay, I stand alone in this opinion. FUCK Y'ALL. Just kidding.
Julian: Like there's a type of black man that dates white women.
Lauretta: i.e., Brian and Ernest.
Julian: Or, a type of black woman that dates white men.
Women do it, too. Look at all the misguided souls practically leaking at the sight of Felonious Bae Jeremy Meeks, who's lighter than Delonte West and has light eyes.
Brian: What two types of black dudes are we talking about? One who dates white women because they're seen as prizes, and one who just dates who he's compatible with? It's hard to acknowledge the idea of how it's ingrained in us that white is perfect when you feel like you really just love someone. Like, I'm aware of the past, and I'm aware that it may seem like I'm dating Becky because she's a trophy, but I really fuck with Becky on a personal level. And defending that constantly is infuriating.
Julian: I can imagine.
Lauretta: Do you talk about these things with Becky? Does she truly have a grasp, I wonder.
Brian: I do acknowledge the idea that white is right. I'm just trying to explain that on the surface it never feels like I'm trying to cuff this woman because she's white.
Lauretta: But does she not really see what's going on?
Brian: Yeah, we talk about it a lot actually. Does she see what's going on? Probably not the full extent. Does she notice glares from people, probably now because we've talked about it.
Lauretta: You know what? One some real shit, that fucking sucks. I mean you love her; that's awesome. I am happy for you. I wish it were that simple and it should be. I really wish it were. But it's just not and it sucks. It's kind of heartbreaking.
Julian: I would never come down on anyone in an interracial relationship unless their reasoning involved negativity or self-loathing.
Brian: Yeah, nobody openly says, "I hate my people so I date white." At least I don't think so.
Lauretta: I don't think so, but I know a lot of people must think it.
Brian: For sure. For sure. I just like to think it's none of my friends dating white girls.
Lauretta: Okay, last question: how do we continue to talk about the fact that we have these false standards of beauty and goodness in our culture that celebrates whiteness and demonizes blackness and fuck with interracial dating? Does that make sense?
Julian: Yes.
Lauretta: How can we have it all?
Julian: It works both ways.
Lauretta: How so?
Julian: Women do it, too. Look at all the misguided souls practically leaking at the sight of Felonious Bae Jeremy Meeks, who's lighter than Delonte West and has light eyes.
Brian: Wait, so black men have to stop putting white girls on a pedestal?
Julian: There's a way to be attracted to all races and date all the colors and not put white women on a pedestal.
Brian: I agree, but I don't think the problem lies with black men solely.
Lauretta: I don't either.
Brian: I know white women who ONLY date black dudes.
Julian: Yup, me too. It's a two-way street. It's all in how you carry yourself.
Lauretta: Maybe, I don't know, call me crazy, but dating probably isn't going to solve any of this. So people should just stop acting like it's the primary source of the problem.
Julian: It isn't. You can't, like, strategically date to solve the problem.
Lauretta: Exactly.
Julian: It lies with the individual.
Lauretta: Right, so fuck with white women, whatever.
Brian: So it'll never really get solved, is what I'm hearing.
Lauretta: Fuck with who you want, but if you're black you need to acknowledge that there's a reason why other blacks will be angry with you.
Julian: Or at least understand it.
Lauretta: But we've got centuries of violence and oppression to deal with, so I'm gonna give those people a pass for still being a little miffed.
Julian: You don't have to acknowledge it publicly, but know what you're going to have to deal with, and, honestly, if you're black, you deal with it everyday, anyway.
I'm not here to change the landscape of interracial dating forever. I just enjoy being with person X, and I'm acknowledging the past and tackling this shit head on. If you still have a problem with it after I explain it to you, than you can go fuck yourself.
Lauretta: Word.
Julian: It's no different than people crossing the street when they see you coming, or getting visibly nervous when it's just you and them in an elevator.
Brian: That's my thing. Maybe Ernesto's too. I'm not here to change the landscape of interracial dating forever. I just enjoy being with person X, and I'm acknowledging the past and tackling this shit head on. If you still have a problem with it after I explain it to you, than you can go fuck yourself. I'm still going to date X and hold hands in McCarren Park maybe even just to fuck with you.
Lauretta: Wellllllllll, that's kinda harsh.
Julian: You should never have to explain your partner to people.
Lauretta: You should not, but if you're smart and know how these things fit within a larger narrative about race and oppression, then okay. But if you're like, NO, this has nothing to do with these other things, then you can go fuck YOURSELF because it does.
Julian: Like, if you're out with a white woman, you shouldn't have to do some grand gesture to let people know, "Hey, I'm actually not an Uncle fuckin' Tom." Are we gonna start giving each other secret handshakes?
Lauretta: High-fives. OK, thank you so much for joining us, Brian!
Julian: Yeah, thanks for adding your two cents to this.
[Cord Jefferson wrote an essay for Medium earlier this month about being a black writer who is always expected to write about racism.]
Lauretta: So I like writing about race. I feel passionately about it. And, while I know Cord is often approached to write about it and has been very good at it for some time, I can imagine why he feels fatigued. But maybe that's just because he's maxed out. Not because these stories aren't incredibly important and need to be told—and from the perspective of a black man or woman.
Julian: Yeah, it's like "Fuck, one more thing." Not to minimize it.
Lauretta: Yeah, well what I liked most about his essay is that there was a palpable sense of pain in it.
Julian: Right, you could really feel the burden. Which is something I totally relate to.
Lauretta: How many times can I write about another black person being fucked over and no one caring? But for me, it's like you can't write about it enough.
I hate that he made it sound like the only reasons why we would enjoy writing about race is because it keeps us employed. I found that really off-putting. What if I write about it because I feel a responsibility to do so?
Julian: There will always be this sense of responsibility that you feel.
Lauretta: You have to write about it even when it feels painful. Even when it feels like no one is listening.
Julian: That's how I felt about Trayvon Martin. I was like, "Shit, that was me. That could've been me."
Lauretta: Right, or even Obama. Cord leads the story with the fact that a police commissioner in Wolfeboro, N.H. called him a nigger.
Julian: Unapologetically, at that.
Lauretta: Right, we know white people call black people niggers. Like, that's just real. They don't always get caught, but when they do, and when they are in positions of power, we need to call them out for it.
Julian: Like, defiantly. "He is a nigger." At least this asshole had the balls to be outright with it, though. I prefer that to the bitches calling me a nigger behind my back, but acting like we're friends in public.
Lauretta: Exactly. Anyway, it's like, what would you prefer, a white person writing about another white person calling a black person a nigger? Or a black person writing about it?
Julian: Right.
Lauretta: I, for one, don't need a white person telling me that it's so horrible when people use that word. I think writing about race and having a black perspective is great for a news room.
Julian: That's what I was going to get into.
Lauretta: And I do get that Cord is like, "No, I'm not some token voice in your news room. I want to write about other things because the racism beat is getting old."
Julian: I feel like when this shit comes up, everyone looks at you like, "And your thoughts are..."
Lauretta: Right.
Julian: It's like when you're the only black kid in the classroom during Black History Month and everyone looks at you during every lesson and gives you the same look.
Lauretta: Right, you're singled out and you sometimes don't want to be. In this case, Cord was like, "No, I don't want to do this." But I hate that he made it sound like the only reason why we would enjoy writing about race is because it keeps us employed. I found that really off-putting. What if I write about it because I feel a responsibility to do so?
It's like when you're the only black kid in the classroom during Black History Month and everyone looks at you during every lesson and gives you the same look.
Julian: Exactly.
Lauretta: What if I feel that, some time ago, we didn't have these kinds of opportunities because no one gave a damn. So excuse me for being fine on the racism beat.
Julian: Being black and being a journalist, writer, whatever can be burdensome, just as any other job can be. I enjoy writing about race and feel that I excel at it, to be honest.
Lauretta: You excel at things you feel passionately about.
Julian: Plus, I'd rather get it right than read a white writer's (no shots) feelings about my struggle.
Lauretta: BINGO. That was a point missing in his essay. What is the alternative? If you're not writing about it, who will? Hopefully, another black person, but we all know there aren't very many of us black writers.
Julian: It would be like watching somebody fail at trying to fix something that you know how to fix.
Lauretta: On the other hand, no shots, if you don't want to write about it any more, that's obviously your right. But don't make the rest of us feel like we are falling into some trap because when some horrible, racist event happens, we either volunteer to write about it, or are assigned and say, YES, I WILL WRITE ABOUT THESE RACISTS ASSHOLES.
Julian: Right. That was his opinion, and his only. He speaks for himself, not the rest of us.
Lauretta: Yes. You know that's a theme throughout these chats—how black people speak for the larger community and are representatives of the larger community, whether they like it or not.
Julian: Precisely.
[You've heard it before: the sound of CNN anchor Don Lemon rattling off lists of things blacks need to do to improve their community as a whole. Or suggesting the cure to "hood disease" is to exit the hood. He also essentially blamed blacks for Justin Bieber's use of the n-word in old videos that recently emerged. Furthermore, Deadspin's Greg Howard penned a detailed profile of sportswriter Jason Whitlock, focusing on his penchant for calling other blacks out, often sounding dangerously similar to right-wingers like Bill O'Reilly. Is this practice of prominent African-Americans shaming the community done to improve actually it, or elevate their status?]
Lauretta: Okay, you hate Don Lemon.
Julian: Not at all, I'm just not a fan of his approach.
Lauretta: So, if I have hood disease, how do I get rid of it? Is there an antibiotic I can take?
Julian: Get out of the hood. That's the vaccine.
Lauretta: That's actually pretty hard, though.
Julian: Right, because there are years of redlining, institutional racism, and other bullshit that have left people unable to simply get out of the hood. Don Lemon is no idiot, he knows that.
None
Lauretta: So why does he make these comments? Like, how is it our fault Bieber used the word nigger?
Julian: He has an agenda. It's trolling on the highest possible level.
Lauretta: Oh, you think he's just a troll. Gotcha.
Julian: He does it for the reaction. No different than Jason Whitlock taking blacks to task for all the world to see. It got people on both sides talking, and it helped his career.That's the issue. If you don't agree with the things that some of us (black people) do, that's fine. There's shit black people do that pisses me off all the time, but calling each other out in the media is some fuck shit. There's a way to do it, and a way not to do it. That ain't the way.
Lauretta: You think he's just out for personal gain. He doesn't really have any interest in helping other black people.
Julian: What journalist isn't?
Lauretta: I don't think a real journalist is out for personal gain.
Julian: They are when they're on CNN and ESPN, I mean. It's all about the next move.
Lauretta: Fair. I think real journalists are out to tell stories that matter.
Julian: They're more personalities than journalists.
Lauretta: Right, I agree. Talking heads.
Julian: As Greg Howard said in his Deadspin piece—Whitlock isn't even an exceptional writer. He's polarizing and incendiary, which makes him a great talking head. Don Lemon probably does care about helping the African-American community, but he can't honestly think that making a list of things black people need to do to better themselves and the community will change anything. Or telling people the cure to "hood disease" (which isn't CDC approved and is, therefore, bullshit) is to just leave the hood, because the people he's talking to, the people that can't get out of the hood, aren't watching his ass on CNN. You want to create change? Get off your ass and go to the source of the problem. Go to Chicago and tell that shit to like, eight Chief Keefs.
Lauretta: Well said, Julian. Well said.
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