Ed. Note—Two Black Discuss This Month in Racism is a recurring feature about race. The opinions expressed during this conversation do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Complex Media. This month, Lauretta Charlton and Julian Kimble discuss a Vogue piece on the sudden acceptance of curvy women, the New York Times calling Shonda Rhimes an angry black woman, and Michael Dunn being convicted of first-degree murder for killing Jordan Davis in 2012.
[In early September, Vogue published an article which read like the discovery of the curvaceous woman. Using the video for Jennifer Lopez's "Booty" remix with Iggy Azalea as an example, the writer declared this, the 21st century, the "dawn of the butt."]
Lauretta: The booty has gone mainstream. At first glance, it's just a pause worthy moment of hilarity, but once you consider the implications behind it, there's a larger conversation to be had about race and body image. (So many butt puns.)
Julian: What really stood out (there's a butt joke) to me about the Vogue piece was how the writer pretty much said having a big butt was previously something women were ashamed of or wanted to get rid of. And I know she didn't mean it like this, but that can also be interpreted as "curvy or ethnic women were not considered attractive by the masses."
Lauretta: Precisely. As if minstrel images of black women with large asses weren't derided and laughed at.
Julian: Exactly. And not to split hairs, but the writer said J.Lo emerged at the end of the '90s, even though she was a Flyy Girl on In Living Color, and was in Money Train in '95. What I take from this is that for some folks, things really don't exist until they discover them. I believe we call that "Columbusing."
Lauretta: All of a sudden it's like, "Guess what white girls? It's totally cool to have a big ass now."
Julian: That's the bottom line.
Lauretta: Zinger.
1.
Julian: That was totally intentional. Anyway, now you have whole categories of porn dedicated to white girls with fat asses. Now you have white girls doing squats and trying to pop pussy whilst doing handstands like they work at Magic City (I refuse to say the "t" word).
Lauretta: The fact that the New York Times piece pointed out that there is now a growing market for this is also interesting because if there weren't, no one would care. I really do not like this term, but it's accurate: cultural appropriation.
Julian: Just think about the fact that there's a market for something that existed naturally a long time ago. Like, forever, to be honest.
Lauretta: I think for many people they think, what's the big deal? We are getting to a place where more body types are accepted.
Julian: Right. Which is how it should be.
Lauretta: And I am definitely in favor of that notion. Women should stop feeling ashamed about their bodies.
Julian: Right, especially since there's no reason for them to. There are plenty of men (and women) who have appreciated the voluptuous woman for years.
Lauretta: But the fact that black women were told by popular culture that their ass was not desirable for so long and now Vogue and the New York Times say it's okay to have a fat ass, it's like, too little too late. I mean what is this? Right. I like big butts and I cannot lie.
Julian: Yeah, it wasn't "acceptable" until it became mainstream.
Lauretta: Becky was all, OMG, no. Now Becky's all, "OMG can I had dat?"
Julian: Yeah, Becky used to be so appalled, now Becky has a bunch of Instagram photos of her doing squats. Or with her ass just flat...out.
But the fact that black women were told by popular culture that their ass was not desirable for so long and now Vogue and the New York Times say it's Okay to have a fat ass, it's like, too little too late
Lauretta: Most of the mainstream articles about the butt boom have also left race out of the conversation. Perhaps we should have seen all of this coming once YouTube videos of old white women twerking surfaced on the Internet.
Julian: So are they smart enough not to go there, or do they just not know any better?
Lauretta: That's a good question. I think they don't know any better because again, the underlying message is more body types are being accepted. It's not, black women and latina women have had big butts and were made to feel undesirable because of them. Now they should feel more accepted.
Julian: That's good, but the delivery isn't. Also, let's make it clear that they were made to feel desirable by certain people.
Lauretta: Right.
Julian: Now they're accepted by the masses.
Lauretta: So wait...when did white boys start liking big booty? Or have they always liked big booty, but were unwilling to admit it?
Julian: Can we grab a white dude and ask him?
Lauretta: Good idea!
[Lauretta and Julian recruit Complex News Editor Andrew Gruttadaro for his opinion.]
Lauretta: Hey, Andrew.
Andrew: Hola.
Lauretta: Question: Have white dudes always liked big asses? Is it a personal preference? We are talking about booty boom in September and were just wondering. Because at one point, they were not in Vogue.
Andrew: Personally, I've always liked a more curvy girl...but I don't think I represent white dudes as a whole with that opinion.
Lauretta: Fair.
Julian: Do you think Jennifer Lopez was integral in the voluptuous woman (and her figure, of course) going mainstream?
Andrew: Yeah, she's probably the pioneer.
Lauretta: Do you think that more white dudes are interested in asses today, or is all of this just hype?
Andrew: I think it's part hype. Probably a little overstated, but I feel like white guys were intimidated or scared of big asses until recently, so it might be less of a question of interest and more so about white guys now feeling like they won't be seen as weird if they declare themselves ass men.
Julian: I think it's probably different with our generation. Many of us grew up watching, listening to, and liking the same things.
Andrew: Definitely.
Lauretta: Okay, cool. Thanks, Andrew!
Julian: Yeah, thanks for the insight.
Andrew: Any time, guys.
[Andrew exits after dropping knowledge.]
Lauretta: Okay. So there's a white dude's perspective.
Julian: Which was a great addition.
Lauretta: Definitely. So do you think we are going to see lots of big asses in 2015? What do you think about the "All About That Bass" song?
Julian: ...wait, what?
Lauretta: White girl proud to have a big ass. You haven't seen?
Julian: I'm glad she's proud, but my life would probably be better if I never heard that song.
Lauretta: Hahahaha.
Julian: Listen, all women should appreciate their curves, but ass didn't originate with Jennifer Lopez and there are plenty of guys who took notice way back in the day.
Lauretta: So what's next? Are we on a new frontier? Like, will there be think pieces about how having black skin is totally sexy?
Julian: Do you want me to write it, or do you want to take that one?
Lauretta: Well, I'm going to say that it's a shame that most of the articles that we've read about these things have failed to recognize that race is indeed a part of this conversation. Obviously the ones that do address it are written by black women. Also, we still have a long way to go before we fix our fucked up standards of beauty. And in the meantime, people will hopefully learn to love their bodies as they are. Black women often have to deal with the invisibility issue and this is a perfect example of that. We and our big asses been here. (Though, to be honest, my ass isn't that big.)
Julian: It's fine, go back to what you said about loving your body.
Lauretta: Thank you, thank you. You know who also doesn't have a fat ass but is beautiful?
Julian: Kerry Washington?
Lauretta: Yassss. You know what she is though? She angry.
Julian: And black. And a woman.
[A recent New York Times piece credited Scandal and How to Get Away with Murder creator Shonda Rhimes with being the most influential black woman in television since Oprah Winfrey. The essay also asserted that if Rhimes wrote an autobiography, it should be called "How to Get Away With Being an Angry Black Woman." The public did not welcome this with open arms.]
Lauretta: K Dub plays a powerful, successful leading lady on a hit primetime television show. How can she get away with such a thing without being angry?
Julian: Because those sex scenes are pretty intense for network TV. I'm just kidding. According to the New York Times, it's because Shonda Rhimes has recreated the image of the angry black woman on television, but isn't that image something that's thrown around when it shouldn't be? Like, in this case.
Lauretta: Absolutely. I mean, it's one of the reasons Michelle Obama has caught so much flack. She's the first lady and she is constantly being accused of being angry-looking. Why? Because she's confident? I think when people think of angry black women they are really seeing a confident black woman.
2.
Julian: I agree.
Lauretta: But because black women are perpetually in positions where they have to fight to have their voice and opinions heard, it's easy to conflate the two.
Julian: I think the "Angry black woman" concept should cease to exist. It's thrown around too much.
Lauretta: It is. We are just doing what needs to be done: taking care of business. That's not anger.
Julian: There was no reason for it to be used in that New York Times piece.
How is it that writers don't understand the power of words?
Lauretta: Shonda didn't take any time pointing that fact out via Twitter. Very happy she did. Her tweets were so on point. But again, because I am a woman and black, I try to put this in context. Black women have to fight to have their voice heard, but many women do. Nobody thought the overuse of "Angry black woman" might offend.
Julian: Look, I'm not even a fan of Scandal, but I have to defend it here. Also, here are more thoughts that I have about this piece: How did that make it to print? Nobody thought the overuse of "Angry black woman" might offend? The fuck happened to checks and balances?
Lauretta: Yeah. They didn't have to use "angry black women." It could have been "angry woman."
Julian: Or just women. Or "black women," but I think "women" would suffice.
Lauretta: The fact that "black" was conveniently put there is what makes this egregious.
Julian: Exactly. How is it that writers don't understand the power of words?
Lauretta: Shonda Rhimes could write the book on being a powerful, no-surrender black woman. The Times has been falling off since Jill [Abramson] left. I'm not lying. And, let's be clear, I am glad a black man is running the newsroom, but how is this happening?
Julian: Exactly.
Lauretta: I decided to end my print subscription today. For environmental reasons, but I'm also over it. "Angry Black Woman Book" put me over the edge. She's not even angry in the show. She seems exasperated and fed up to me.
Julian: That goes back to writers not understanding the power of their words.
Lauretta: I think someone would call that ironic.
Julian: Or simply speaking outside of their realm of knowledge.
Lauretta: We all have blind spots, but some of us are more aware of them. In general, I think people should refrain from writing about race unless they have studied it, or have firsthand experience dealing with life as a minority. And minority to me does not just apply to race. People living in extreme poverty are minorities. The .000037% are minorities also, but they are just disgusting.
Julian: I also agree that you should only speak about what you know about. If you've lived a life of privilege, there's only so much you can say about living in poverty. Or, you know, nothing at all.
Lauretta: Exactly. Also, if you have one black friend, you can't really say that you know what black people think. Because your one black friend is not telling you what they think as they sip manhattans with you and your four mutual white friends at a cocktail bar in Chinatown.
Julian: The words "I have one black friend" should never be uttered.
Lauretta: You saw that study, right?
Julian: Yeah.
Lauretta: If you have no black friends, I don't care how much you love the new Rich Gang mixtape, you should not attempt to analyze black culture in any public fashion as a writer. Just don't. Shut it down.
Julian: Exactly. I don't know shit about Kentucky Derby Parties and would never go to one, so you'd never see me writing about them. I mean they're obviously something I know about, but not from experience.
Lauretta: Exactly, and yet we are constantly shaking our heads when white people start writing about black culture. Give it a rest. Very simple. So, don't start talking about black women writing books about being angry black women because you have no idea what that means. I don't want to sound like I am discouraging dialog because that's part of this. I am discouraging horrible ledes, though. And also making those kinds of tone deaf pronouncements.
Julian: Right, but I think you should be smart enough to know when you're out of your comfort zone, or when you're just dead wrong.
Lauretta: The reason why we need to have these conversations is because of situations like what happened Michael Dunn.
[In November 2012, Michael Dunn shot and killed 17-year-old Jordan Davis at a Jacksonville, Fla. gas station. Dunn insisted that he fired 10 shots into a vehicle carrying Davis and three other teenagers because he thought he saw a gun and felt as though his life was in danger. In February, he was found guilty on four charges, but the jury was hung on a first-degree murder charge. On Tuesday, Dunn was convicted of first-degree murder following a brief retrial.]
Julian: Justice was finally served. But I'm still bothered that it took a retrial for him to be convicted of first-degree murder.
Lauretta: Definitely. I mean, dude said it was self-defense. That made ZERO sense. If he got off I think I would have lost all faith in the justice system.
Julian: Even after this conviction, I still have little faith in the justice system.
Lauretta: Do you think this was just a charade? Like they knew that had to make an example of him, or if it weren't so high-profile he probably would have gotten off?
Julian: He got everything he deserved. The fact that it happened the same year Trayvon Martin was killed and in the same state brought a lot of necessary attention to it.
Lauretta: This has been a crazy year in terms of these high-profile, racially charged cases in which unarmed black men and women are killed by white perps, whether they be law enforcement or Average Joes.
3.
Julian: Yeah, this summer especially. It's forced the world to pay attention, but will it force the justice system to live up to its name?
Lauretta: That's a good question. I read recently that by 2030, "inmates older than 55 are expected to account for a third of all prisoners." Obviously our prison population is mostly black men. It's appalling.
Julian: That's distressing, but I'm more interested in whether or not the system will give black lives the value they deserve, even after they're lost. Actually, especially after they're lost.
Lauretta: He needs to be in jail, without question. Dunn is guilty, but will putting him behind bars solve anything? Do you think?
Julian: This could just be my jaded perspective, I don't think it will.
Lauretta: What did you think of the apology from the police commissioner regarding Michael Brown?
Julian: I think it came almost two months too late.
Lauretta: I'm really sad that Eric Holder resigned, since he was such a badass and seemed to be serious about making strides in this area.
I'm more interested in whether or not the system will give black lives the value they deserve, even after they're lost. Actually, especially after they're lost.
Julian: It caught me off guard, and I will say that having him in that position gave me a little more faith that certain issues would be taken care of or taken seriously because he sees them from the same perspective that I would.
Lauretta: Now the GOP is going to make a big stink about his replacement, and it's just the same ol' fucking bullshit.
Julian: Politics as usual.
Lauretta: That's what they say. Honestly, that to me is where we are getting this wrong. Black people need to vote.
Julian: I can't stress that enough.
Lauretta: Yes, this was an excellent piece (OK, maybe I won't cancel my subscription), and it addresses how these things play out. One of the most interesting points is the fact that local elections are often held on odd-years, and if we changed that, there would be more turn out and more participation.
Julian: And, as the piece points out, some people aren't even aware of that.
Lauretta: It's true. Now that the Voting Rights Act has basically been gutted, it's more important than ever to stress participation in the black community.
Julian: It starts with young people, but there's a faction of jaded older folks who think their votes don't matter and that needs to change.
Lauretta: It does, because if there's something wrong with the criminal justice system and you want to fix it you need to do something about it. These people are elected officials. They don't just walk into a court room or city hall and say "What up, bitches." If you want to hold people accountable, show that you are invested.
Julian: Plus, people mobilizing actually accomplishes something.
Lauretta: Another shitty truth that the article points out is that blacks can't always afford to run for local office because they don't have white collar jobs that allow them to do so. We have so much work to do.
Julian: "Shitty truth" is so spot on. Not even an inconvenient truth; a shitty one. We're always outnumbered, even when we aren't.
Lauretta: Anything else you want to add?
Julian: No, I think we touched on everything. And yes, that's a butt joke.
