The Abbot of Wu-Tang Clan is back in the headlines. Not that he ever really left—RZA always seems relentlessly busy, whether it's with music (he released a collaboration with Paul Banks of Interpol last summer) or business, like selling vegan-certified leather wallets through his menswear line, 36 Chambers.
But he's attracted less triumphant headlines, too. RZA recently took to Facebook and defended Russell Crowe after an altercation with Azealia Banks at Crowe's party. Banks was there as RZA's guest, and he was in the process of signing her to his label. But Crowe and RZA go way back, too—Crowe starred in RZA's directorial debut, the 2012's The Man With The Iron Fists.
While it lasted, RZA's association with Banks seemed like a healthy student/teacher relationship. He believes in mentorship, in the power of fostering strength in a young artist, and in the merits of being an outsider. If there's one film in RZA's rich lexicon of kung fu classics that speaks to his handling of the Banks drama, it's The 36th Chamber of Shaolin (1978), which inspired him to look at the struggles in his hood as a part of something much more epic.
It's no wonder the film informed the title of Wu-Tang's debut album, or that RZA connects so much with the main character, Yude, who is training to become the monk San Tae. Yude is initially rejected by the abbots as an outsider, until the head abbot takes him in and he begins to train. After conquering the 35 chambers, San Tae wants to start a 36th where he can train his people to defend themselves against their oppressors.
This Thursday, RZA will present The 36th Chamber of Shaolin at New York's Town Hall, accompanying the film with a new score. We spoke about the resonance that this film still holds for Wu-Tang 37 years after its release—how San Tae's journey has informed RZA's views on rap beefs, mentorship, violence, mathematics, and making art.
RZA's message is a triumph of self-agency and personal responsibility. These are the lessons that some rappers learn too late in the game, while others master them to make art that transcends multiple mediums—film or music, space or time.
Young rappers are more focused than ever on building their brand these days, but I feel like for you and the rest of Wu-Tang it wasn’t so much about building a brand as it was about building a mythology. What’s the difference to you?
It’s about both. You see it in stores, Wu T-shirts, Wu video games, comic books. The brand is always important, because brand is part of lifestyle. If you’re artistic you always want to bring your lifestyle to the forefront.
As far as the mythology, I think that’s created more unconsciously than consciously. Because one person could take it as mythology, [but] it could be reality for another. For Ghostface to call himself Tony Stark’s Iron Man, that’s the personality and feeling he felt. For those of us who agreed with him, to add that to our psyche made it mythology.
In The 36th Chamber of Shaolin there are definitely some parallels between our hero and your story. How do you connect to that on a personal level?
I definitely connect to the character San Tae in the sense that he’s realizing the oppression he's suffering, realizing that he had learned something he can offer to the people. It benefited him immediately—he was a great martial artist and could have been the leader of any chamber he wanted, but instead of staying in the temple he decided to go out and spread what he learned. I definitely relate that story to my personal life, and a lot of the other Wu members relate to that.
The movie was called Master Killer when it came out, and we have Masta Killa in our group. He felt like he was that character as well because he came to Staten Island, to Shaolin, from Brooklyn. He wasn’t part of growing up with the rest of us, but he came and he learned and he became one of us. You can go through the different members and they’ll probably give you a relation to the character as themselves.
This film is a piece of art that has the power to inspire. It inspired me, and if it inspires one person that has the capability to continue that inspiration, it moves people to do other things. It has power and it serves a purpose. One of the goals of us showing this film now is presenting that inspiration to the audience.
With regard to the politics of being a monk and practicing kung fu, do you take any lessons from those traditions in your own views on mentorship or apprenticeship? I know the Azealia Banks thing didn’t work out as you would’ve wanted, but it’s interesting that you wanted to try and help out a younger artist. Is that something you consider a part of a monk’s culture? Your apprenticeship with Shu Yung Ming, for example, seems to mirror this. Are they linked?
They absolutely are cohesive with me, I’m the Abbot of Wu Tang! That’s a name I didn’t make for myself. I definitely made RZA, and came to the decision of making that my attribute. But it was the other members who elected me as abbot. And that same abbot personality, as I’ve traveled throughout my life, I’ve come across others. Jim Jarmusch called me The Abbot! He’d call up and say, “Abbot, I’ve got a question.” So I accept that. The abbot is that person who, through his training and his studies, may be the one you call upon to have a reasonable answer, a solution to a problem.
What’s the abbot’s perspective on beef? Not even just as it relates to you, but the larger picture of how it can tear apart community and culture. I know you try to rise above it and not get involved, but how does rap beef connect to the idea of you being a monk?
The abbot is that person who, through his training and his studies, may be the one you call upon to have a reasonable answer, a solution to a problem.
Look—self-respect is always mandatory, right? There are great men who’ve taught us about the situation. Let’s use Jesus as an example. He said, "Turn the other cheek." That means you’re giving this man a warning. Hopefully when this man sees that he’s committed this violent act or crime against you, there’s enough compassion inside him that he won’t do it again. Now if he slash the other cheek, you actually are justified in executing whatever sort of justice that you want—whether physical, mental, spiritual, whatever.
There’s a lesson that teaches us you can’t return from a physical death. From any other death you can return—economic, spiritual, social, whatever. But once a physical act is ejected, you can’t return from it. That’s when all bets are off and the reaction that comes back against you is like the laws of science—an equal and opposite reaction. So if someone is sitting next to me and they’ve got beef, let’s say an East Coast/West Coast beef that’s manifesting in words—as long as it stays words, it’s only wordplay. That’s why Wu talk about swords. But when the word continues to grow and turn into flesh, that’s when all kind of struggles happen.
Great that you mention Jarmusch, because way before Coffee & Cigarettes when you guys were involved with Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai, it didn’t seem like many young rappers were getting into the acting game. But now with shows like Donald Glover’s Atlanta, film and television have really become an elevated outlet for young black expression.
Donald Glover is definitely on fire. He’s an example of a multi-layered artist that’s capable of expressing his art in whatever medium he joins. Whether he’s a stand-up comedian or a writer—he got an Emmy for his writing ability. He’s accepted in the hip-hop community as a viable artist. He’s a viable actor who gets in front of the camera and gives great characterizations. I loved him in The Martian.
When hip-hop was first being born, we didn’t understand the artistry of it. We understood the talent and the ego and the coolness, the swag. But the artistry of it, I don’t think we really put our name on it in the first generation of it. So we didn’t really see that this art could be expressed in other mediums. Of course, when the videos came out you started seeing rappers making video scenarios, instead of just rapping in front of the camera they started acting out their videos. Then we started seeing more.
Donald Glover is definitely on fire. He’s an example of a multi-layered artist that’s capable of expressing his art in whatever medium he joins.
I think with artists like Will Smith, Ice Cube, Tupac… Big Daddy Kane made his appearance in Posse, we saw KRS-One just appear on the screen in I’m Gonna Git You Sucka. Those early guys helped inspire and show that it was possible.
For me, I realized that the same wavelength I put in as an artist I can actually put in any medium. It’s like a musician—once he knows the music theory to play the piano, he can take that same theory and practice and play the flute, the guitar. He’s realizing now that he’s a musician.
I know that numbers are spiritual to you, and that the number seven has particular resonance across different cultures and teachings you’ve studied. Where are you at with all of that now?
Mathematics is the only thing we can count on, that don’t lie. Actual facts. I strive to deal with that, and always look to apply the mathematics of the day, of the time.
The message RZA has right now is: look at yourself and recognize where you at. Where you at in space and time? If you look at your age, what does that point at in your life? How many other men been there? It’s proven now that you don’t even get certain genes popping till you’re 25. So you can be 24 years old and not understand what it is to be 30 because the gene hasn’t kicked in. But it’s there. So you've got to recognize where you're at in space and time.
