Erick Sermon Tells All: The Stories Behind His Classic Records (Part 1)

In part one of our two part series, the Green-Eyed Bandit breaks down the stories behind the making of his biggest hits from EPMD to the Def Squad.

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Complex Original

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Erick Sermon’s been putting in work as a hip-hop headliner for a quarter century now. It all started in 1987, when the legendary Brentwood, Long Island duo EPMD dropped their first single, “It’s My Thing” b/w “You’re A Customer.” The E-R-I-C-K has been getting busy with the beats and rhymes ever since. EPMD released four chart-crushing albums together and a slew of hit singles (including their biggest smash “Crossover”) before splitting up in 1992. But the break-up didn’t stop Erick Sermon’s rampage.

Embracing his solo status, Sermon began working heavily with his Def Squad brothers Redman and Keith Murray, creating some of the most indelible rap tracks of the ’90s like “Time 4 Sum Aksion” and “The Most Beautifullest Thing In This World,” which led to celebrated careers for both artists. Sermon’s own releases were banging too, showcasing his East coast funk style on songs like “Hittin’ Switches” and “Stay Real.”

Amidst all the hype surrounding the recent Hit Squad reunion concert at New York City’s Best Buy Theater, not to mention the buzz of his newly released Breath Of Fresh Air mixtape, E Dub invited Complex to his home studio on Long Island to break down the stories behind his classic records—from the EPMD era to the first time he heard Redman and Keith Murray rap. Let’s get down to business.

As told to Daniel Isenberg (@StanIpcus)

EPMD “It's My Thing” (1988)

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Album: Strictly Business
Label: Fresh/Sleeping Bag
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “That was a break beat that we heard because [Kool DJ] Red Alert played it all the time. It was from Ultimate Break Beats. Everything back then in hip-hop was all break beats.

“[The loop] is a little off. That's why when you hear Jay-Z telling the story of 'Ain't No Nigga' to Angie Martinez, he's saying how he told Jaz, 'Why can't you loop the beat like Erick did it?'

“We spliced it, and looped the quarter inch tape around the room. There would be a chair here, with the tape, and we would [literally] loop it around that, and record it. We didn't know about samplers. Charlie Marotta, the engineer that was there, taught us how to do that. It was like nothing you'd ever seen before.

“That was our first real time in the studio, and we used that song to shop our demo with. We got turned down twice. We went to RCA, and somewhere else. Then we finally went to Sleeping Bag Records, which is Fresh Records, which put out Jay-Z afterwards too.


 

It was also the first song we ever did. We were over at Parrish's father's house, in his apartment. I think Parrish was drinking a Beck's beer. It was 11 o'clock, and Red Alert goes off at 11. We heard the beat played a lot on the radio, because it was a break beat, but ours came in with the helicopters [sound effects]. So we heard the helicopters, and we tried to call people, and everyone's phone was busy. We were trying to call them, they were trying to call us. It was the most exciting moment in our life, hearing those helicopters come in.


 

"We got stopped by them, met this kid named Virgil Simms that was inside. And Virgil let Ron Resnick and Juggy Gayles [hear us], and Will Sokolov, who put out a lot of albums [including] the Reasonable Doubt album. So they liked it, and Fresh Records was who we were signed with.

“The [demo version of] 'It's My Thing' didn't have a chorus. So the label called Special K and Teddy Ted in. And after watching them [make the chorus], that's how I became a producer. They indented the chorus from the record on another track.

"There was no sampling machine, so they flew it in live, on the turntables. They slowed it down and sped it up, until they got it, live. That's what showed us how to make a record. Before that, we didn't know what a producer was. We thought everyone on the radio made their own records. We thought every record you heard on the radio was made by that artist.

“We would come in with the record [we wanted to loop] and the engineer would [help us put it together]. But the label knew something was missing from the record, because we didn't have anything on the chorus. The beat was just going plain with nothing to break it up.

“That was [the first song we ever had on the radio]. It was also the first song we ever did. We were over at Parrish's father's house, in his apartment. I think Parrish was drinking a Beck's beer. It was 11 o'clock, and Red Alert goes off at 11. We heard the beat played a lot on the radio, because it was a break beat, but ours came in with the helicopters [sound effects].

"So we heard the helicopters, and we tried to call people, and everyone's phone was busy. We were trying to call them, they were trying to call us. It was the most exciting moment in our life, hearing those helicopters come in. It was fantastic. That was our shit.

“We went to the Latin Quarters where Red Alert used to spin at, and gave him the record [there], but he didn't play it there. We waited all night, but he didn't play it. By the next weekend, it came on the radio.

“EPMD took off from there. The story of us is unreal. We blew. We blew fast. We popped. Once it got out the first time, it was over.

“I remember having our first show. Chuck Chillout booked us in the Bronx at the Stardust Ballroom. EPMD, Public Enemy, Biz Markie brought out Big Daddy Kane for the first time, Super Lover Cee & Casanova Rud. EPMD was phenomenal. We were brand new, young bucks, sitting there stiff, the whole nine. Boom. When I walked outside, I could hear cars playing 'You're A Customer,' the B-side of 'It's My Thing.'”

EPMD “You're A Customer” (1988)

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Album: Strictly Business
Label: Fresh/Sleeping Bag
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “We got the idea from ZZ Top's 'Cheap Sunglasses.' So it was ZZ Top, looped underneath the Lindrum drums. A Lindrum was a beat machine that Charlie had. So while we looped the loop, we put the drums on top of it to make it harder.


 

I got a lot of money off the 'You're A Customer' drums. I even told DJ Premier. I said, 'Yo Premier, you think I don't know 'Mass Appeal' is 'You're A Customer'? I never came at you for that, but I know my drums!'


 

“So we took the song back to the hood. At the end of [the song I say], 'With the guitars playing.' And then we take it out. That's because the hood was like, 'Yo, the record sounds good, but take the guitars out.' It was too rock-ish for them.

"So when we took the guitars out, all you heard was the 'Boom boomp, boom boomp.' The bass and the drums were played, and when we took the [guitar] loop out, that's all you heard. But [the beat initially came from sampling] ZZ Top's 'Cheap Sunglasses.' No one in the world would have ever been able to figure that out.

“Everyone flipped that. Biggie, Mario Winans. I got a lot of money off the 'You're A Customer' drums. I even told Premier. I said, 'Yo Premier, you think I don't know 'Mass Appeal' is 'You're A Customer'? I never came at you for that, but I know my drums!' The kick and snare on 'Mass Appeal' [is from 'You're A Customer'].”

EPMD “You Gots To Chill” (1988)

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Album: Strictly Business
Label: Fresh/Sleeping Bag
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “Me and Parrish were building that 1968 Camaro that we talk about in the 'It's A Demo' record. And Parrish's father had a Zapp cassette. So Parrish was like, 'Yo, check out this record.' So when I heard it, I was like, 'This record's crazy.' It was funky. EPMD, as you can tell from the albums, our song selection was always kind of ill, from David Bowie to Eric Clapton to Phil Collins. We didn't sample the regular James Brown records.

“We come from Brentwood, Long Island, so we had a multicultural [upbringing]. Even though there might be 70 percent whites, it's still blended in with Puerto Ricans and blacks. All our friends were [mixed]. I loved AC/DC, I loved Led Zeppelin. I knew who The Who was. I knew about all these groups because that's what we heard. There was a whole world of music that I had in my head.


 

We used one microphone, meaning that we didn't have different [vocal] tracks. Parrish would rap, and then move over, then I would rap. People can't really understand the recording process of EPMD because you wouldn't believe it. We probably could have used two tracks, but we were just used to rhyming together. 'You move, then I move.' And it sounded the same as if we used two different tracks. That would be unheard of now.


 

“We weren't [consciously trying to sample different bands that other rappers weren't sampling]. If something is funky, you rock with it. Even though Bob Marley did 'I Shot The Sheriff,' Eric Clapton's version was funkier. Whatever had the groove to it, you sampled it. We didn't care where it was from. If something was hot, [we used it]. Don't forget, every break beat is a rock band playing drums. It's a band.

“We [first] went to the studio in 1985, and it didn't turn out right, as far as our first time going in. And then, Parrish was playing football, quarterback, for Southern Connecticut. So we had to skip a year. EPMD probably would have come out in '86, but he was playing football. So when '87 came around, we made 'It's My Thing' and 'You're a Customer.' That was the first record we ever made. But when it was time to go in and do the album, that was the next cut we made, 'You Gots To Chill.'

“That was the first single off the album. The label was like, 'That's hot,' [so it became the first single]. When we made records back then, there weren't records to choose from. Whatever we made in the studio went on the album, because we didn't have that much money then. We made the records, and put them on the album.

“All the [early] recordings were done at Charlie Marotta's studio, which was a house studio. We went in upstairs, and there were wires all over the place with milk cartons and egg cartons for soundproofing. We made the records on eight tracks.

“And we used one microphone, meaning that we didn't have different [vocal] tracks. Parrish would rap, and then move over, then I would rap. People can't really understand the recording process of EPMD because you wouldn't believe it. We probably could have used two tracks, but we were just used to rhyming together. 'You move, then I move.' And it sounded the same as if we used two different tracks. That would be unheard of now.


 

EPMD was big, period. We're the only group to have four No. 1 albums in a row. That never comes up in conversation. And we're the most sampled hip-hop group in history. You hear stories about Biggie rhyming to our beats on demos. Or Jay-Z using 'Ain't No Nigga,' and 'Get At Me Dog' with DMX. I could go on forever with singles that people used from EPMD that set them off and began their careers.


 

“The reason why EPMD was so dope is because we battled each other. It was friendly competition. Like, if Parrish says something dope, I want to say something iller. That's what made us so dangerous. The friendly competition, and going back and forth, made it so the rhymes were just crazy from both of us.

“EPMD was big, period. We're the only group to have four No. 1 albums in a row [Ed. note: their first three albums went No. 1, the fourth peaked at No. 5]. That never comes up in conversation. And we're the most sampled hip-hop group in history. You hear stories about Biggie rhyming to our beats on demos. Or Jay-Z using 'Ain't No Nigga,' and 'Get At Me Dog' with DMX. I could go on forever with singles that people used from EPMD that set them off and began their careers.

“'You Gots To Chill' was big, because it was the first single from the album release of Strictly Business. But 'It's My Thing' and 'You're A Customer' were just as big in the streets. Those took us everywhere too.”

EPMD “So Wat Cha Sayin” (1989)

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Album: Unfinished Business
Label: Fresh/Sleeping Bag
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “The second album wasn't coming along. We were making songs, and the songs weren't sounding right. I ain't gonna lie. It was like the sophomore jinx. We didn't know what was going on. We didn't know about pressure. We were too young for that. We were 19.

“I happened to be going on tour, and we were overseas in London. The DJ plays this beat, and it's 'Fairplay' by Soul II Soul. And I'm like, 'What the fuck is that?!' And he gives me the dubplate. I still got it, it's warped now.

“When we get home, and we're going in the studio, I had the dubplate. And that was it, with 'One Nation Under A Groove.' I heard Clark Kent find those drums later on in life, and I was like, 'Yo, how did you find those?' Because it was a dubplate.


 

The second album wasn't coming along. We were making songs, and the songs weren't sounding right. I ain't gonna lie. It was like the sophomore jinx. We didn't know what was going on. We didn't know about pressure. We were too young for that. We were 19.


 

"He knew it was 'Fairplay' for some reason, because people were searching for that, because it was 'Impeach The President' just beefed up. Clark Kent knew. He played it on the radio one time. I couldn't believe he found it. But it was years later that he found it, not immediately.

“Jazzie was a dope producer for Soul II Soul. He was hard. But he had no idea we used that record. They would've been came and got us. But he had to know, because it came out that year, and I took it. He might've just not been focused on that type of stuff. Because it was a dub version on the B-side of their record.

“It was us and the people from the label [who decided to put that out as our first single]. But you kind of knew that was the one because it was crazy. And then Scratch put the cuts on it, and it was monumental.

"DJ Scratch came at the end of '88. Jam Master Jay came on our tour bus and was like, 'I got some guy for you.' But we were like, 'Nah, we're cool.' We had already got rid of two DJs. So when '89 came around, Scratch was there. And he became our DJ for the whole time.

“The video was dangerous. Malcolm-Jamal Warner [from The Cosby Show] was there the whole time. We were underground in Manhattan, in not really a sewer, but under like a manhole with the pipes. It was a great shoot, and Malcolm-Jamal Warner stayed the whole time. I don't know why he was there [because we didn't know him]. He was probably cool with the director.”

EPMD f/ Redman “Hardcore” (1990)

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Album: Business As Usual
Label: Def Jam/RAL/Columbia
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “I met Reggie at Club Sensations in Newark, New Jersey. Reggie was DJing for DoItAll from Lords Of The Underground. And DoItAll rhymed. And he said, 'My DJ rhymes too.' And Reggie said one line—'I float like a butterfly, Sting like the rock group.' And I put him on stage that night.


 

I knew there was something spectacular about Redman. Right off the bat. The next day, we talked. And within the next two or three months, he moved to Long Island, to my crib. He moved right in to my apartment.


 

"I knew there was something spectacular about him. Right off the bat. The next day, we talked. And within the next two or three months, he moved to Long Island, to my crib. He moved right in to my apartment.

“Parrish really liked Reggie too. That's why he was on the album twice, on 'Hardcore' and 'Brothers On My Jock.' People thought that our voices were similar, and some people didn't know that was him on 'Brothers On My Jock.' Even when Redman got signed, Lyor Cohen said, 'Well, he sounds too much like Erick.' And I was like, 'I'm nice, but I ain't that nice!' But I guess it was the tone.

“I was already making songs for Whut? Thee Album, but 'Hardcore' was the first record we recorded with Redman for EPMD. Reggie's thing for 'Hardcore' was that all the rappers [down with] EPMD had a lot of style.

"Das EFX was with us too at that time, but you wouldn't know that [because they hadn't released any music yet]. And Redman had heard K-Solo with 'Spellbound' and he wanted to do something in that realm, doing the thing with the letters.


 

People thought me and Redman's voices were similar, and some people didn't know that was him on 'Brothers On My Jock.' Even when Redman got signed, Lyor Cohen said, 'Well, he sounds too much like Erick.' And I was like, 'I'm nice, but I ain't that nice!'


 

“That's how 'Hardcore' came. It was for him to do that monumental verse. With Das EFX and K-Solo doing them, he had to come with something [and make his mark]. The record was for EPMD, but we ended up doing a teaser for his album [using his 'Hardcore' verse], which got people amped because it was the first time they saw Reggie [by himself].

“Scratch did the cuts on 'Hardcore,' but Redman did the cuts on 'Manslaughter.' The first time we ever performed 'Hardcore' was [this past] Friday night [at the Hit Squad Reunion show at Best Buy Theater.] That's why that show was so exciting. I don't even wanna brag about it. It was fantastic.”

EPMD f/ LL Cool J “Rampage” (1990)

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Album: Business As Usual
Label: Def Jam/RAL/Columbia
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “Scratch [didn't make the beat for 'Rampage.'] Parrish did. I wasn't there. I was sick. I wasn't around though anyway, because Parrish and LL were friends, so sometimes they would hang out without me. They happened to be in the studio that day, and they were in there rocking.

"There are versions out there with them going back and forth without me on it. But the 'Rampage' title came from Scratch. He thought the 'Rampage' sample would be dope in there. Scratch [went nuts at the end with the cuts.]


 

Russell Simmons told LL Cool J to get with EPMD. He was on with the 'Pink Cookies' thing, but Russell felt that he needed to be with EPMD. That's why he came with us and got his swagger back. Nobody knows that part. So he befriended us, got out and used us, and then came out with Mama Said Knock You Out.


 

“Russell Simmons told LL Cool J to get with EPMD. He was on with the 'Pink Cookies' thing, but Russell felt that he needed to be with EPMD. That's why he came with us and got his swagger back. Nobody knows that part.

"LL was on another way, and Russell felt he should be over there with somebody hot, and that was EPMD. So he befriended us, got out and used us, and then came out with Mama Said Knock You Out, and the album was phenomenal.

“I think 'Rampage' was dope. It was a record where LL and Parrish were secretly battling. People talk about that a lot. LL is a subliminal shot thrower. It turned out to be a great record. I wish I was feeling better. Even Lyor was like, 'You sound horrible on that record.' But Parrish was like, 'No, fuck that man. We keepin' that record like that [with Erick's verse on it.']

“I was sick. The beat was up-tempo, so I should've been more like I was on 'Headbanger.' When people heard LL's verse, they [thought] I was coming after to get him. But it didn't happen. I was sick.

“We never performed that [back in the day.] The first time we ever performed that with LL wasn't until 2009 at Hammerstein Ballroom for the Jam Master Jay memorial thing.”

EPMD “Crossover” (1992)

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Album: Business Never Personal
Label: Def Jam/Columbia
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “Roger Troutman had just come out with his last album, and I bought it when we did an in-store [out in L.A.] So after we got home from L.A., we went to go see Russell Simmons to play him our album. And Russell was like, 'The album is dope, but y'all are missing the single.'


 

We had a song called 'Play the Next Man' on the album. And we wanted to drop it first as a 'Gold Digger' part two. Russell Simmons was like, 'You drop that record [as a single] and that will be the end of your career.'


 

"We had a song called 'Play the Next Man' on the album. And we wanted to drop it first as a 'Gold Digger' part two. And he was like, 'You drop that record [as a single] and that will be the end of your career.'

“So me, having that Roger, I was at my mother's house for some reason, and she was upstairs vacuuming, and I had the Walkman on and I was playing that cassette. And I kept playing that record.

"I went home, and I made [the beat for 'Crossover'] that night. I put the 'Whatever you want, oh oh, whatever you need..' on the hook. And I said, 'Yo Parrish, I got the record.' And we made it that night. That was the last song made on Business Never Personal.

“MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice came out, and they kind of shook the world. And we thought hip-hop was [about to take] a turn in another direction.


 

We had no idea that a record dissing radio was going to be that huge. But Russell knew. He didn't tell us that, but he knew.


 

"It wasn't that we were mad at what they were doing. It was that we wanted to preserve what we had. We wanted to make sure the people knew what this is right here.

“[It was ironic] because we dissed radio. We had no idea that a record dissing radio was going to be that huge. But Russell knew. He didn't tell us that, but he knew. We just wrote what we felt.

"He didn't care [that we dissed radio], because it wasn't about the words. It was about the beat, and the melody in the hook was just so crazy. That was the biggest record EPMD ever had.”

EPMD f/ Redman and K-Solo “Headbanger” (1992)

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Album: Business Never Personal
Label: Def Jam/Columbia
Producer: EPMD

Erick Sermon: “I made 'Headbanger' for Ice Cube [who was my friend]. But I never got it to him. I never got the chance to give it to him. That was the last song before 'Crossover' was made.

“We were in the studio one day, and we needed a crew record. So I threw the beat on. And we started yelling. The session just went that way. The beat made you amped. I was just so aggressive. I was thinking about The Bomb Squad when I made that record.

“We had it set up like a Tempations thing, with the four mics set up. Just screaming. It was hard to EQ that record because you had the leakage [from one microphone to the others] like back in the day. But we did it that way, and it came out fine. [Performing the vocals live together] made it very exciting.


 

Wu-Tang said, 'We got our style from The Hit Squad.' Raekwon is on record [saying that]. 'We gotta be like them.' We were the first ones. We didn't have a format or blueprint for crews. There would be no crews [without The Hit Squad]. We gave a format for what a crew should look like. This was a crew of MCs who won, who were successful. There would be no Bad Boy, no Wu-Tang, none of that. They had to have a blueprint to look at, and we were it.


 

“That studio's not there anymore, Dave's Rockin' Reel. But we thought the album was done because we thought we had the single before 'Crossover,' so we recorded that and just wilded out, thinking it was our last record. I don't know where that came from. We were just yelling, and thinking about Onyx too [who was hot at the time].

“Russell and them [wanted to put that out as a single]. That record was huge. Because once the album came out, that was the record that was picked up. Plus, it was Redman. Reggie was the excitement. His 'Headbanger' verse was like, 'Yo, who is that?!?'

“Don't forget, 'Headbanger' came out, and then the teaser for 'Hardcore' came out after to promote Whut? Thee Album. 'Headbanger' was the first time that people really knew him [because 'Hardcore' was on Business As Usual but it wasn't a single so not everyone knew about it].

“And that [ushered in] that whole new era. Wu-Tang said, 'We got our style from The Hit Squad.' Raekwon is on record [saying that]. 'We gotta be like them.' We were the first ones. We didn't have a format or blueprint for crews. There would be no crews [without The Hit Squad].

“We gave a format for what a crew should look like. This was a crew of MCs who won, who were successful. There would be no Bad Boy, no Wu-Tang, none of that. They had to have a blueprint to look at, and we were it.

“And it was by accident. We liked how K-Solo sounded, like, 'Who the fuck is doing this spelling shit? This is crazy.' We signed Das EFX, because we heard that, 'Riggedy...' and were like, 'This is crazy.' Look at the techniques they had. Nobody sounded like them. Das EFX changed the landscape of music, from Kriss Kross to Wreckx-n-Effect. Heavy D, Jay-Z, everybody tried it. Even Cube was like, 'Chiggedy check yourself before you wreck yourself.'”

Redman “Blow Your Mind” (1992)

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Album: Whut? Thee Album
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “Reggie produced the first [version which is actually the remix on the album] with the Roger Troutman sample. But the one that's on the video, I did that. Because for some reason, the first one was too funky. It was more laid back.

"After coming off of 'Headbanger,' and 'Blow Your Mind' being the first single, Russell was like, 'We need a remix.' And I did the remix, and that became the [main album version] and the video version.


 

Redman was my artist. So I was bringing them the album. Russell Simmons and Lyor Cohen thanked me so much for bringing this Redman album in, because Def Jam was going down then. EPMD had broken up. We stopped at 'Headbanger,' and that was it. They had The Afros. They needed this.


 

“The reaction was phenomenal. I threw the Gap Band [sample] in there. Back then, you just threw samples in there. 'Humpty,' 'Impeach The President,' just throwing drums in there. Whatever sounds good.

“I liked the version he did, because I liked Roger [Troutman.] He was going off what we did with EPMD. And Reggie can produce too. And he got the same type of shit in him that I have in me. But when it came down to doing the records and getting them done, it was me. They knew that whatever was in my brain was untouchable at the time.

“Sitting here sometimes now, I wanted to ask Premier if he knew what he was doing back then when he was so young, because I didn't know what I was doing. I was just making what sounded good for me. And not knowing that I was a producer. Remember, we came in not knowing what a producer was. So now you're saying I've got a title for this? I'm a producer? Oh, okay. I'm about to go in now. Let's start making records.

“Redman was my artist. So I was bringing them the album. Russell Simmons and Lyor Cohen thanked me so much for bringing this Redman album in, because Def Jam was going down then. EPMD had broken up. We stopped at 'Headbanger,' and that was it. They had The Afros. They needed this.”

Redman “Time 4 Sum Aksion” (1992)

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Album: Whut? Thee Album
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “It's so bugged out. I went to L.A., and Demmette Guidry, he ran some department at Sony, and we just landed and he picked us up. And he had the Cypress Hill cassette. And Cypress Hill had me twisted. I was like, 'Wow.'

"So I called [Ice] Cube, and I was like, 'Yo Cube, I want to bring something by your video.' Me and Ice Cube were tight. So I come by, and I pull out the Cypress Hill [tape.] Next thing you know, I see Cube in the 'How I Could Just Kill A Man' video. I'm like, 'What the fuck?!' It was that fast that he got cool with them.

“When I was making the beat, I had that record near. That record was so dope. And the reason why I was able to use that, 'Time 4 Sum Aksion,' is because the vocals were by themselves. And B-Real's voice is so ill. It cuts. The beat was made, and you always want to have a hip-hop vocal sample. That's my formula. Find a dope sample to go on the beat, if you can.


 

I called Ice Cube, and I was like, 'Yo Cube, I want to bring something by your video.' I come by and I pull out the Cypress Hill tape. Next thing you know, I see Cube in the 'How I Could Just Kill A Man' video. I'm like, 'What the?!' It was that fast that he got cool with them.


 

“[Working with Redman] was just a thing off of EPMD for me. I was well into production now, working on EPMD's fourth album in '91. So now, it was more of my thought process.

"I knew [Redman] was more of a funk dude who got what I liked. Reggie said when he first heard EPMD, he knew what lane he wanted to be in. He was always writing and doing records, but he didn't like how it was sounding over there. The stuff that we did matched him. Like, 'That's what I want!' And then he ended up meeting me.

“Reggie was a big N.W.A fan. So when you hear Whut? Thee Album, there's a lot of N.W.A [influence]. The interludes, the transactions within the beat [and different vocal parts dropping in during the verse] like, 'Redman ready to rock, I got a Glock then, 'Blaaaow.'' That's all Dr. Dre. There's a lot of stuff like N.W.A and The Bomb Squad on that album.

“Reggie was intricate with that. He knew how to make excitement in the record. He crafted 'Time 4 Sum Aksion.' He crafted that record. We all had engineers, and he knew what he wanted to hear, [so he would give them instructions]. And Reggie was a DJ himself, so he knew how to drop things in and out."

Redman “Tonight's da Night” (1992)

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Album: Whut? Thee Album
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “That was one of the first [records we did together for Whut? Thee Album]. That came from being in the condo and playing some 45s. I was just playing some 45s that day. I heard the melody, and the beat was slow, so I sped it up [from 33] to 45. And I was like, 'Wow.' I liked it, but I didn't know he was going to like it. But he liked it.


 

You ask the Eminems, you ask the Biggies, whatever. They'll tell you they never heard nobody flow like Redman before. Whatever he did was going to be right. I didn't even care.


 

“[The Hurricane G part in the beginning, where she tells him to switch from a smooth style to a hardcore style] was all him. He probably liked the beat, but I guess when he was saying [the rap] he probably was getting too smooth on the beat. And I think that was just them [being creative].

“I wasn't in the studio the day he recorded that. What he did with it was crazy, but I already liked the beat, so no matter what he did I would've liked it. Reggie was just dope. No matter what Reggie did on the rhyme it was not going to be wack. He was the illest shit that niggas ever heard.

"You ask the Eminems, you ask the Biggies, whatever. They'll tell you they never heard nobody flow like that before. Whatever he did was going to be right. I didn't even care. It was like, 'You got the record recorded? Aiight, let's mix it.' Very rarely did I say I didn't like a verse by Redman. That was very rare.”

Erick Sermon “Hittin' Switches” (1993)

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Album: Who's The Man? (Soundtrack)/No Pressure
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “Aww, man. I was in Atlanta, Georgia. I moved down there after the [EPMD] break-up. I was so happy at that time. EPMD was in shambles, with the break-up. I had a very rough last two years with EPMD.

“It was personal stuff. We had blew so fast, stuff was moving so fast, and the business wasn't right. But when it was over, and I moved to Georgia, it was like a whole body came off of me. So much pressure [was now gone].


 

Puffy was a dumb fan of EPMD. Even now to this day. Clark Kent told Mase, 'You gotta be Erick Sermon.' Mase lisp was strong, but he told him to make it stronger. Puff told Mase too, 'You gotta sound like this.' There's no secrets, man.


 

“I went there to chill. I met some dudes, and a couple of girls, and chilled out for a while. And my boy took me by Dallas Austin's studio. And Dallas was like, 'Yo, you're not leaving here.' And Darp Studios is one of the most famous studios in Georgia.

"He was like, 'You can have Studio B.' He didn't know me from Adam. He just knew me as Erick. And it was just the fact that Erick Sermon was in his studio. He was elated. But he didn't say that many words. He was like, 'Give Erick Studio B.' And that was it.

“So I was in there having a good time. I was free, the whole nine. Then Puffy called me for the movie. Who's The Man? was his soundtrack. Because Puffy was a dumb fan of EPMD. Even now to this day. Clark Kent told Mase, 'You gotta be Erick Sermon.' Mase lisp was strong, but he told him to make it stronger. Puff told Mase too, 'You gotta sound like this.' There's no secrets, man.

The Chronichad came out. That was my East coast version. And I used the metaphor of 'Hittin' Switches.' Even though it was meant for the cars, I meant it in a metaphor way. Like, 'Off and on, off and on, it's on.' Something that you do. But people thought it was about the cars maybe. But that's fine.


 

Biggie Smalls was a big Erick Sermon fan. Even in the last interview for Rap Pages, they were like, 'So, who do you want to be like?' And he was like, 'I like Erick Sermon. I like how he move.'


 

“Then Russell [Simmons] called me. Again, Def Jam needed some material. He said, 'Yo, you wanna do an album?' And maybe that was from 'Hittin' Switches,' because 'Hittin' Switches' was big. It was my [first] solo. People were like, 'Okay, there goes one verse from Erick. There's another one.' They didn't know [at first that] it wasn't an EPMD record. And Def Jam needed product flow. They knew, at the time, that I was the one producing.

“I was making songs in Atlanta, but I was real comfortable. So my songs were coming out too comfortable. I wasn't Erick Sermon of EPMD or E Double, I was somebody else. And Redman came down and said, 'Yo, your songs are okay, man. But they're missing something.' I owe Redman a lot for 'Hittin' Switches.' Because when he said that, I came back and became E Dub. And Puff was like, '[It's a] single. Let's go.' Automatically.

“The video was shot by Puff and Hype Williams, and it was Hype's second video. And Biggie Smalls was there the whole time watching me. Biggie Smalls was a big Erick Sermon fan. Even in the last interview for Rap Pages, they were like, 'So, who do you want to be like?' And he was like, 'I like Erick Sermon. I like how he move.'


 

Tracey Waples, who used to work at Def Jam, called me one time like, Biggie Smalls is trying to get on your album.' I'm like, 'Tracey, I don't even know the kid.' So he called Puffy and was like, 'Yo, can you please get me on that Erick Sermon album?'


 

“So the greatest rapper of all time is sitting there watching me. Tracey Waples, who used to work at Def Jam, called me one time and was like, Biggie Smalls is trying to get on your album.' You know, No Pressure. And I'm like, 'Tracey, I don't even know the kid.' So he called Puffy and was like, 'Yo, can you please get me on that Erick Sermon album?'

“But I had a kid named Joe Sinistr, who was Jam Master Jay's artist that Redman told me about. He was like, 'I got this kid, and I'm not saying he's me, but he's crazy.' Reggie didn't hate.

"I called up Jay like, 'Who's this kid Joe?' Met him the next day, and put him in the studio that night, and we made 'Payback II.' I had Redman, Keith Murray. I didn't need anyone else.

“Oh my God, you know how many times I think about [what it would have been like if I had Biggie on my album?] But you don't know. You just don't.”

Erick Sermon “Stay Real” (1993)

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Album: No Pressure
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “'Hittin' Switches' did well, so I had to come back with a single. Russell was like, 'You gotta come back now.' So I'm in Atlanta, and I'm in the rim shop [that I owned], and 'Keep it Real' was going around. That was the new slang. So that was it.

“I went in the studio, and I had the drums for Dr. Dre's '187' from Sly and the Family Stone. I didn't know where Dre got that beat from, but I found it. And once I got the gist of the beat, I was like, 'Oh, I'm going in now. This is it.'

“I wasn't expecting the response from 'Hittin' Switches.' I was going hard on that. And then people thought I was dissing Parrish on the last line when I said, 'Back with the adventure, without Pee Wee Herman.' But it was a metaphor. But people thought it was a diss. So that boosted it way up. But no, [I wasn't dissing him].


 

I was going hard on that. And then people thought I was dissing Parrish on the last line when I said, 'Back with the adventure, without Pee Wee Herman.' But it was a metaphor. But people thought it was a diss. So that boosted it way up. But no, [I wasn't dissing him].


 

“'Stay Real' was what it was, because the slang was the new word, and the motto for that time. It was 'Crossover' part two, but 'Crossover' [had a different message.'] 'Stay Real' was more like, 'Stop faking. Keep it real in whatever you're doing.' 'Crossover' was like, 'Stop being pop.'

“And that blew. I sold so many records for Def Jam the first week on the No Pressure album. They couldn't believe it. Then right on top of my campaign, they signed Domino. And that messed me up. I was kickin' ass, and then they signed this Domino cat, and it [got in the way]. I was at 400,000 pieces. I was kickin' ass.

“People are always talking about me not being as successful as EPMD. But my records always sold. I know people aren't pulling them. But it wasn't like I didn't have it. I did as much as I could do without having my partner. I had big records. Every record I had had No. 1 singles on them.

“They say I didn't have as much success without [Parrish]. I be like, 'Who are they talking about? What are they looking at?' I'm the number one producer on the planet in hip-hop! Def Squad went No. 1. What success are you telling me that I didn't have?' I don't get it.”

Erick Sermon f/ Keith Murray “Hostile” (1993)

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Album: No Pressure
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “Murray was brung over to me by K-Solo. He brought him to my house. This is during EPMD, in 1991. And again, I heard one line on Murray. He said, 'Let's squash the beef, cook it, and we all can get fat.' I'm like, 'Huh?!?!?' I immediately took him. Same way I took Reggie. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

“And he had rhymes after rhymes after rhymes. Him and Reggie just had a whole bunch of rhymes. So if I got beats, it's a producer's dream. Whitney Houston being a dope singer is a producer's dream. Those guys had rhymes. If I had beats, all they had to do was put the rhymes on them. And I had enough beats to go on.


 

Keith Murray was supposed to be one of the prolific MCs in the game. If his career had gone straight without all the confusion and [going to jail]. I'd never seen that type of impact by an MC. From Puffy calling him, from him hanging out with Nas. He had Biggie Smalls in the hood [on Long Island]. He impacted the Totals and the Mary J. Bliges.


 

“Murray was a thing where he had other things going on with him. He was supposed to be one of the prolific MCs in the game. If his career had gone straight without all the confusion and [going to jail].

"I'd never seen that type of impact by an MC. From Puffy calling him, from him hanging out with Nas. He had Biggie Smalls in the hood [on Long Island]. He impacted. The Totals, Mary J. Bliges. He was one of those people, like, 'What the fuck is that?'

“He was singing and rhyming. He was like, 'Oooh, I might lose my cool, and break fool, and pull out my 'get busy' tool.' You know, 'I rhyme like a mad journalist...' What was that? Dangerous.

“Brett Ratner, the big film director, that's who shot 'Stay Real' and 'Hostile.' He's one of my good friends. Russell [Simmons] wanted to sign Keith Murray. We ended up getting in a big argument at the 'Hostile' video shoot because I ended up signing Murray to Jive. But I didn't know he liked Keith Murray. Usually, if I had an MC, they'd be like, 'Yo, we want that.' But no one said shit.

“Jeff Fenster and Jeff Sledge and Barry Weiss [at Jive] liked him. I went to where people liked [my artists.] Def Jam didn't want Das EFX, but Sylvia Rhone got it. And she won. Russell just automatically thought Keith Murray was coming there. That could've been my fault too. But since nobody said nothing to me, I didn't think to go to Def Jam. But Murray ended up going to Def Jam years later.”

Illegal f/ Erick Sermon “We Getz Busy” (1993)

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Album: The Untold Truth
Label: Rowdy/Arista/BMG
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “The weird part was that we won a Billboard Award for Best Rap Single of the Year. Clive Davis ran the Billboard Awards, so Arista was winning everything that night. Whitney was winning everything. It was Arista's night.

"So when niggas saw that we won, we were looking at him, like, 'Yo, Clive is a beast.' But it was on the charts for so many weeks. Like, ridiculous weeks. It was up there. It was a No. 1 single.

“[Illegal] were brought to me by Lisa 'Left Eye' Lopes. Lisa and I were talking back and forth for like two months, on like a dating thing. And Dallas was doing TLC. So Lisa had these two boys, and anything Dallas had that was rap [he gave to me] because Erick Sermon is now in his studio. Shadezof Lingo, them, and whatever was hip-hop.


 

[Illegal] were brought to me by Lisa 'Left Eye' Lopes. Lisa and I were talking back and forth for like two months, on like a dating thing.


 

“Malik was already out. He was on the Snoop Dogg album, on 'Pump Pump.' Then, they were also cool with Naughty by Nature. So they had relationships with all these top rap people, and the biggest R&B group in the world is TLC, and Left Eye's cool with them too. They started calling me Uncle Erick. 'Can Uncle Erick come over?'

“I end up living with Lisa in a hotel, and we became cool [and made some music]. The single came out, 'Head or Gut,' and the B-side was 'We Getz Busy.' And the guys didn't like Da Youngstas, and they didn't like Kriss Kross. And that's why they got so big. Because they were calling their names out. They were not afraid.

“Jamal's first album, with 'Fades 'Em All'—oh my God. I still to this day don't understand how that record didn't go. That record had us, Diamond D, Rockwilder, Mike Dean who worked with Scarface. It was put together so [well]. Rowdy Records didn't do it right.

“Jamal was so dope that Busta Rhymes put him on records. He rocked with Junior M.A.F.I.A. A lot of people reached out to him. When it comes down to MCs, it's what I did. I never lost with rappers. I knew the flavor of MCs, and had an ear for it, and knew they were going to be special. I had some special people in my crew.”

Redman “Rockafella (Remix)” (1994)

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Album: Rockafella” 12 inch
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “Method Man had came, and Method Man had took off! And people put Reggie [under him]. Even Biggie Smalls dissed Reggie. In one interview, he was like, 'Yeah, I don't like how the new Redman sounds.' He didn't like that album. It was real psychedelic funk. And that threw people back. To me, I didn't see a big change. But people thought it was a big change.


 

Even Biggie Smalls dissed Reggie. In one interview, he was like, 'Yeah, I don't like how the new Redman sounds.'


 

“People didn't fuck with 'Rockafella.' He was almost over, until I came back with the remix. The Chronic had messed everybody up. And he started doing 'Rockafella' with the 'G Thang' sample. And people were like, 'What are you doing?'

“The 'Rockafella (Remix)' is what got him back on track. They didn't like the 'G Thang' thing. The 'Rockafella (Remix)' sounded like a Redman funk record. And that's the one that started getting played on the radio, when the remix hit. People had put Redman under when Method Man took off. “The Month of the Man” [Def Jam promotion was being pushed], but Method Man had a lot of records.

“But then they came out with 'How High.' And that was it after that. Redman was [through the roof]. And then came Muddy Waters.

“[The original 'Rockafella' version didn't work because] it wasn't Reggie. It was the idea of the funk, and I see where he was at, but subconsciously The Chronic was in his head. The Chronic was the biggest album to ever hit in the world, and he came right afterwards.”

Redman f/ Keith Murray and Erick Sermon “Cosmic Slop” (1994)

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Album: Dare Iz a Darkside
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Reggie Noble

Erick Sermon: “That was the shit that he was on. There's Parliament, and there's Funkadelic, which is what he was on during that album. Whut? Thee Album was more Parliament. Funkadelic is the more rock side, and he had the cover [with the play on the Funkadelic album]. It was the more weird side.


 

People say that album was a failure. That's why [a lot of the production on] Muddy Waters was me. But the underground says Dare Iz A Darkside is their favorite album.


 

“It was mostly him. Reggie had gotten a hold of an MPC-60 [and was making beats]. I didn't do that much work on that album. But that's what's so bugged out. I'm like, 'Reggie, in people's eyes, that's their favorite [Redman] CD.' But that was all him and Rockwilder, who at the time was in a rap group called Xross-Breed. But I had all the singles on that album.

“There was something about my records that fit him. Even though he wanted to experiment, at the end of the day, even he got flack like people didn't like that record. People say that album was a failure. That's why [a lot of the production on] Muddy Waters was me. But the underground says Dare Iz A Darkside is their favorite album. But Muddy Waters was a No. 1 album, from everybody.”

Redman “Can't Wait” (1994)

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Album: Dare Iz a Darkside
Label: Def Jam
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “A guy named Mike City, who's a famous producer for Brandy and Sunshine Anderson, said that record is how he started producing. He said it gave him the formula to do Carl Thomas' single 'I Wish,' because of the one-two of it. Mike City did 'Full Moon' for Brandy, and again, those are songs that [were influenced by the production on 'Can't Wait']. I can't remember the sample I found, but I mixed it in with the [Mary Jane Girls] beat, and that was it.

“I always ask him what did he mean by that, 'Switchin' speeds like Bruce Lee ridin' a Fuji in a movie...' line. I still don't have a clue what he means by that. I still don't get it.”

Keith Murray “The Most Beautifullest Thing in This World” (1994)

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Album: The Most Beautifullest Thing in This World
Label: Jive
Producer: Erick Sermon
Erick Sermon: “'Hostile' was so huge. And there were so many nice things in that verse. But that was the main sentence that stood out, because [beautifullest] is not a word.

“There were two versions. On the second version, I played The Isley Brothers on it, which Da Brat used, then Biggie Smalls used it with 'Big Poppa' after that. We all three won with the same type of record. I played that on top of the Main Source drums, and that was it.

“The story about that was he didn't want to do the chorus. It was the first argument we ever had. He thought it was corny. He thought it was too soft or something like that. He didn't know it was gonna flow like that. I was like, 'Yo, trust me. It's gonna work.'


 

We were very unselfish. Name one crew from my era that did that: that would step to the side and let these other people get bigger than you. That's something that you didn't do. LL didn't put nobody out. You didn't see that. That was something that we did.


 

“Murray was quiet [in the studio]. He was just a young kid who had tons of rhymes that was happy to be doing what he was doing.

“The video was incredible. He killed that video. Keith Murray was a big soccer player, who played soccer in school. So he represented with the soccer shirt on in the video. And Murray's an entertainer. He's been that way for a long time. He can entertain his ass off.

“He came, I liked him, and we tried to make it happen. You don't really know [if it's gonna blow]. Don't forget, I'm doing this still young myself. What crews do you know that are still new themselves, making records and still new blowing, and they're blowing up other acts?

"We were very unselfish. Name one crew from my era that did that: that would step to the side and let these other people get bigger than you. That's something that you didn't do. LL didn't put nobody out. You didn't see that. That was something that we did.

"Our next album, we had K-Solo coming out. Our next album we had Redman coming out. My solo album's out and now Keith Murray's coming out. It was something we did [without planning too]. Whatever was happening at the time was what was happening. There was no written script. We had no plan.

“Keith Murray had a rhyme session at a diner when he was a little kid with Big Daddy Kane. His name was Keithy Keith then. I got it on DVD. It was Kane's birthday, in the diner, and he's like [to Keith Murray], 'Let me see what you got little man.' And they go back and forth and back and forth, and then Kane roasts him. I can't wait to show the world.”

Keith Murray “Herb is Pumpin'” (1994)

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Album: The Most Beautifullest Thing in This World
Label: Jive
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “That first Murray album was phenomenal. We didn't have a manager or an agent, so we didn't get as big as a Death Row or other crews that had teams behind them. We didn't have people pushing us to become big. Our music spoke.

“But these albums, when you hear [the beat for 'Herb is Pumpin'] I'm like, 'What was I on?!?!?' I still be buggin', man. There was a sample in there, but I played the bass line myself. All my stuff is bass-line driven. That's what people know me for—grooves.


 

They were smoking [weed], and they were smoking some shit called bom-ba-zi, which is leak [or dust].


 

“I didn't smoke, or drink. That was all Reggie. They were smoking [weed], and they were smoking some shit called bom-ba-zi, which is leak [or dust].

“Murray had rhymes upon rhymes upon rhymes. That album was just shit that he had. I didn't need to smoke. I was high off hearing those rhymes. To hear those rhymes? Oh my God. They sounded so dope. It was like, 'Wait 'til somebody hears this shit.'

“The Keith Murray shit was hard though, because I was making his demos and playing them for people, and nobody was liking it. Like, Das was not [feeling it]. Parrish was like, 'Oh yeah, he's getting better.' And then Sticky Fingaz [from Onyx] was like, 'Yo, he's dope, but I can't hear him on a whole album. And then he came out, and it was proper. And it went Gold quick, too.

“We stopped around 700,000. I wish I knew what I knew now, on how to jump-start stuff, and do the extra marketing and promotion that you should be doing. Why stop? Do a remix or another video or something.”

Keith Murray f/ Erick Sermon and Redman “How's That” (1994)

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Album: The Most Beautifullest Thing in This World
Label: Jive
Producer: Erick Sermon

Erick Sermon: “I like those drums. I can hear them now. I got the, 'Ah Ah, word is bond, word is bond,' that I said on the Too $hort record ['Buy You Some'] from Reggie on 'How's That.' When I did it on the Too $hort record, people were like, 'What made you do that?' And I'm like, 'They have no idea that it came from the Keith Murray album with Redman.'”

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