A Conversation With Vince Staples About Success, Numbers, and Pokémon

Vince Staples has a conversation about music's obsession with numbers, responding to haters, talks with Tyler, the Creator, and the song he made for 'Pokémon.'

Vince Staples YouTube still
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Image via Vince Staples/YouTube

Vince Staples YouTube still

All things considered, Vince Staples seems pretty happy these days. Sure, he’ll occasionally hop on Twitter to debate with people about the merits of his new self-titled album, but he insists the arguments are all in good fun. Plus, there are bound to be haters when you’re good at what you do.

“You have to remember, you haven’t reached a certain level of success if you don’t have mixed reviews,” he tells Complex. Vince’s 2017 album Big Fish Theory is, by his estimation, hated by more of his fans than any other record he’s released. And yet, it’s also his most successful. Just another paradox that sits at the heart of Staples’ unrelenting rise within rap’s ever-shifting hierarchy.

Vince obviously loves rapping, but he loves doing other stuff, too. There’s his graphic novel, set to be coming in early December. He dabbled in television with his streaming series, The Vince Staples Show, and he’s showing love for the Pokémon franchise by contributing a new song, “Got Em,” for the Pokémon 25 soundtrack. Hearing Vince spit about charging up like Raichu might take you off guard at first, but he takes the same approach to everything he creates. “If you can write a song you can write a book,” he explains.

There are always rumors cooking up around the 28-year-old rapper, and though Vince Staples has only been out three months, fans are already anticipating the next one. That’s, in part, because Tyler, The Creator, Vince’s friend and future tourmate, went on Hot 97 and mentioned that Vince’s next album is going to be something massive. Of course, when we asked Vince about it, he danced around the question, explaining that Tyler was probably making connections in his own head that Vince would never make himself, but he did confirm that they’ve been working together in some capacity. He struck down the size of this news, though, tossing it off as an aside in line with his new philosophy: “I appreciate everyone’s help, no matter who they are.”

Our conversation with Vince Staples, lightly edited and condensed for clarity, is below.

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What was your relationship with Pokémon growing up?

I had them when I was a kid, that shit was everywhere. I don’t know who didn’t have a relationship with Pokémon, just from the show that aired, to Saturday morning cartoons, to the cards in school or the video games, to the movies. It was kind of a phenomenon. So, when it came time for them to select people for the 25th anniversary, I was just honored to be a part of it.

What’s it like for you translating your approach to music when you’re given a prompt and have to stick within certain boundaries? 

It’s just a method of execution. As a person that’s creative, I think it’s always good to have a challenge to see how you can push yourself to be better. That’s how you get more diverse, more unique. So, it’s something that I’ve always appreciated. I’ve done a lot of films and a lot of songs, and it’s just about the interaction with different things other than putting out songs for myself. But, this being something that I grew up with, I’m more knowledgeable of it. It wasn’t as much of a challenge as my first work on soundtracks. This time around, it was easier than usual just because of my relationship with the brand itself. 

You’re reaching back to the audience that grew up with you and watched Pokémon, but do you imagine connecting with a new generation of fans who may not know about you or your music, but will be attracted to it, because of your relationship with the game?

Yeah. I’ve done things in the past where my friends and the people around me will be like, “Oh yeah, my son watches this or watches that all the time. And we didn’t even know you had a song on it.” With this, I’m getting the same response, if not more, because it’s something that my demographic is also aware of. It’s just cool, man, to see your friends’ kids who know you, and they’re like, “Oh, I didn’t know this was you.” It’s interesting, because Pokémon’s something that has grown over time, and has different layers and different iterations. 

You strike me as someone who is easily able to separate the artistic side from the commercial side of things. But do you still have goals to always widen your network and find new audiences? Or are you more focused on just putting your art out?

I think it’s the same thing in a sense. You think about marketing—I study a lot of businesses and the biggest, most innovative companies are always unique. When you think about the companies that are known for doing a specific thing, singularity is an important part of art, or just selling anything. I think they kind of go hand in hand, if you’re the only person that does what you do. And, of course, you always have your own lane, and it’ll be easier for people to find you or easier for you to stand out. So I think you can combine them if you can just look at it the right way.

Vince Staples self-titled album

Your music is different from one record to the next. So how do you balance your creative freedom with that willingness to drive down and be good at one thing in particular?

A lot of people go to me for that creativity, so I’m lucky enough to have a fan base, listeners, and people that consume the things that I’ve put out, that are looking for that uniqueness. So it alleviates that pressure, but the people are looking towards the next thing and not more of what they got the last time. 

I feel like you’ve earned their trust to experiment at this point.

Yeah. I think that’s a very true statement, because when I create, if I do something that feels too similar, even a little bit, people would be like, “Oh, this isn’t adventurous enough. This isn’t this enough, this isn’t bad enough.” So I get constant reminders that I do have that privilege and I appreciate it a lot.

But the other side of that coin is, you’ve been more active in directly responding to criticisms and praise of this new album. What made you feel like this was a record where you could be going on Twitter and talking to people who say it didn’t go hard enough?

Oh, I do that all the time. All I do on Twitter is answer people and talk shit. It wasn’t anything too crazy. I just had a little bit of fun.


“I always think music is too much about numbers. How much did this artist get paid? It’s all about compensation and capitalism, essentially.”


There were definitely some fans who thought that because of its length, it wasn’t a certain thing…

Yeah. I’ve never put out anything without mixed reviews. A lot of people hated Big Fish more than anything else I’ve ever done, and that’s my most successful album to date. A lot of people didn’t like it at all. But you have to remember, you haven’t reached a certain level of success if you don’t have mixed reviews, only because people are entitled to feel how they feel, and if you have enough people digesting something, there are going to be people that don’t like it. They have the right to not like it. Nothing is perfect. We’re not exempt from people disliking something. So it doesn’t really bother me, to be honest, at all. 

I feel like once you get to a certain level, if it was only your fans—oh, they love you—of course everything is going to look great. But when people see an impasse, they have the right to say it’s not for them. So, it’s all good.


In some ways then, it’s almost like a rite of passage or a sign that you’re doing really well, because if you weren’t, people wouldn’t be bothered to talk about it.

Yeah. And it’s not like they’re being super vindictive or trying to be hurtful, for the most part. They’re just saying they don’t like it. Certain terms can be a little bit more harsh, but you have to know what people mean. People only use GOAT or trash, there is no middle ground. So, you can’t get too hurt about stuff like that. It’s people just saying they don’t like something, which is perfectly fine because we have these outlets for these voices. So if you don’t want to see that, stay up out of it. That’s the way I look at it.

For it to still exist in these terms of, “Oh, this is the best thing ever” or “Oh, this is the worst thing ever,” you’re not even working with the art at that point, I don’t think.

A lot of people don’t digest art in certain ways, and that’s based on how we’ve positioned these things. Personally, I always think music is too much about numbers. How much did this artist get paid? It’s all about compensation and capitalism, essentially. So you can expect those two things to parallel. I don’t necessarily want to hear how much artists make on their tour, or how many records they sold. They showed us something that was important to them, or dear to them, or whatever. You have to take it for what it is. 

When you look at the rest of the world, this whole thing is set up for numbers, for monetization. So we measure success with charts and things of that nature. It’s not really the fan’s fault, because they only know what you give them. If the headline was, “Oh, this artist spent this much time on this record,” rather than they sold this much or they made this much, then the fans would probably prioritize that. But it’s just not what they’re given.

Has your perspective shifted on that, as someone who’s now been making music for a decade? When you were growing up, did you do that, not digesting music as intensely?

Well, yeah, we didn’t have the internet. We had internet, but it wasn’t like this. Whatever was the 106 & Park top video, that’s how I ranked somebody’s success. And that didn’t have to do with the number, it was like, “This is the video of the week, this is the best new song of the week.”

Lil Wayne’s “A Mill,” was something I hadn’t even seen before. But then, when you see Pharcyde videos later down the line and you see other videos, you’re like, “Oh, this is similar to the ‘Straight Outta Compton’ video.” It’s like, “Oh, this is similar to the thing that I know that I liked,” and it opened up an appreciation for the creativeness of certain things later down the line. It’s just so much different now.

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I was watching an interview with Tyler, the Creator where he said he’s excited for your next record because you really figured some shit out. Do you remember that conversation with him? And what is it that you think you figured out?

Yeah, I remember that conversation. You’re going to have to bare with me, because honestly, I don’t read music news stuff. I appreciate him saying that, because Tyler often parallels stuff to himself because he reaches such a large platform, and just such a high level of success based on what he wants to do creatively. So that’s high praise to come from him, for him to say that. I think he was kind of comparing it to what he figured out on one of his albums and then his next album, and how I felt, because that was a transitioning point for him, based on owning the sound. That’s high praise to come from somebody who’s done it their way and garnered so much success, it’s a rarity nowadays.

Do you think it’s just a refinement of your sound and working towards a new vision?

You never know exactly what Tyler’s getting at, because he has such a vast mind and unique way of thinking. That’s what I would guess he’s talking about, but you honestly never know with him, because he dissects things in such a unique way. If I had to guess, I’m pretty sure that’s what he’s talking about. Because we’ve had several conversations about a lot of things. We’re going on tour soon, and so we just have been having a lot of talks lately.

Have you played new music for him as well?

Oh, we worked a couple of weeks ago. But I haven’t really played anything for him, that was for something else.

You have all these other projects outside of rap. What is it about working in other art forms that satisfies something in you creatively?

Well, growing up, I never really wanted to make music. I didn’t know anything about it. It’s something that I kind of stumbled upon. It has given me so much, so why not take that same mind and take it to other media? I just started making music when I was like 15, 16 years old because—and I had never thought about it before—I didn’t even really listen to music. I was kind of ignorant to what music was and the depths of it. I only knew what I saw on TV and on the radio.

Growing up in such an open-minded area, even though it had its ups and downs, where people were accepting of uniqueness and trying different and new things, it led me to pick up the music. If you can write a song, you can write a book, it’s all pretty much the same basic type of thing. It’s just how you decide to elevate it or how you decide to grow with the material. I’m taking the same mindset from when I started music and putting it to other things.

You’ve been doing this for about a decade now. Are there still people that you look to for advice and inspiration in the game? Or at this point are you comfortable with leaning on your own instincts?

I’ve honestly never had anybody else. With your internal team, it’s basically like asking yourself, because you tell them your vision and they do their best to execute it. But as things go on, I’m meeting more people and I’m being around more people that have helped me. Everyone’s input helps me. I think anybody who is willing to help others get to a level that they’ve reached should always be appreciated. It’s not one person in particular, it’s just listening to everybody with some input. It can go in one ear and out the other—you can agree, you can disagree—but it’s always important to listen to people, because they didn’t have to take out that time to try to help you. I appreciate everyone’s help, no matter who they are.

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