Having a consistent presence in any music genre for two decades is no easy feat, but Lethal Bizzle has indeed stood the test of grime’s turbulent time. The 37-year-old MC-turned-entrepreneur’s journey begins in 2002, first as a member of the East London trio More Fire Crew—whose debut single, “Oi!”, was a Top 10 hit and remains a classic draw in Black British clubland—and then as a solo artist and executive producer, creating some of the most iconic grime hits known to man, or woman.
One of those iconic grime hits came in the form of a posse cut—“Pow! (Forward)”—released in 2004. Produced by Dexplicit, it featured now-legendary MCs in D Double E, Jamakabi, Fumin, Napper, Demon, Flowdan, MC Forcer, and More Fire’s own Ozzie B and Neeko. Living up to its name, “Pow!” was like a sonic punch to the face when I first heard it all those years ago—via the grainy, budget music video on Channel U—its rolling claps and 8-bar relays giving an insight into the grime ritual of pirate radio sets, and a scene that would go on to inspire millions across the land. “‘Pow!’ is a big part of UK music history,” Bizzle tells me over Zoom. “It will live forever, and it’s much bigger than me now: this is the people’s song, generation to generation. This generation shouldn’t even know about that tune—either they weren’t born when it dropped, or they were just a little kipper and managed to clock on to it.”
“Pow! (Forward)” was also one of the catalysts of Form 696, the boldly racist, now-defunct police risk assessment form that promoters and club owners had to fill out before putting on any event that had grime, rap, dancehall and other forms of Black music on the bill. Before the legislation was set in stone in 2005, “Pow!”—which got signed to EMI shortly after its initial release, with a shiny new video to boot—was already being targeted by white, mainstream media as this “violent” song, and was later banned in certain venues once it reached Parliament. “When all that backlash started happening, I was so pissed,” Lethal says. “Dexplicit made me change my thought process, though. He was like, ‘Bro! When you think about it, your song is so sick that they’re trying to stop it.’” I was like, ‘You know what, Dex? I didn’t even look at it like that.’ So I changed my perspective. But it was annoying because they were stopping me from doing gigs, doing shows, and tried to stop DJs from playing it. When I discovered the festival world, though, and found out they actually like to see mosh-pits, it softened the blow a bit.”
After the success (and controversy) of “Pow!”, Lethal went on to release a number of grime hits and two albums, before making a name for himself in the indie-rock scene via “grindie”—a short-lived but impactful movement spearheaded by the UK producer Statik in the late 2000s—which blended elements of grime and indie. This led to NME naming Bizzle one of its rock stars of the year, and it opened him up to a whole new audience. Then came the TV show appearances, the clothing line, the fragrance line, and soon he became known as one of the first millionaires to rise from grime. Today, Lethal Bizzle owns countless businesses—both at home and now in Ghana—and he finds pleasure in helping today’s rappers and grime MCs when it comes to finance. He no longer needs to make music to feed his family, but he does it for the love anyway—and as a form of therapy. “I’ve got a lot more to share with the world,” he says, “and I hope people really take in my new project Lethal B vs Lethal Bizzle.”
Dive in below for the full conversation.
“I want to be that guy for people to look up to and be like, ‘Rah! He’s from the ends, and 20 years on, he’s still doing his thing.’”
COMPLEX: This year marks the 18th anniversary of “Pow! (Forward)”, which makes me feel old [laughs]. How does it feel knowing that a grime classic you put together all those years ago is still tearing up clubs today?
Lethal Bizzle: I don’t know if it’s gone fast or slow, but just knowing the song’s still doing its thing shows how important that song was and still is. ‘Pow!’ is a big part of UK music history. It will live forever, and it’s much bigger than me now: this is the people’s song, generation to generation. This generation shouldn’t even know about that tune—either they weren’t born when it dropped, or they were just a little kipper and managed to clock on to it. It just shows the kind of legacy the song is building. I’m proud, man. I didn’t know it would end up like this, I’ll be honest. It’s arguably one of the greatest grime songs of all time.
It most definitely is. I remember the tune causing mayhem across the UK when it came out. I witnessed a few brawls, I can’t lie to you—and not from people that look like you and I—but it was mostly harmless grime hype. When the media and government started targeting you and the scene, though, and wanted to get the song banned because they thought it would start World War 4, what was going through your mind?
It was a weird time. Up until “Pow!”, the game was quiet. Dizzee was getting a lot of attention—he won the Mercury for Boy In Da Corner and stuff—and Wiley was doing his thing, but all of us were still on the roads, still in the underground scene. Labels weren’t really showing any interest at the time either. So when “Pow!” happened, it was almost like a big fuck you to everyone that doubted us. When it started popping off, I was like, “Yes! We’re back!” When all that backlash started happening, I was so pissed! Dexplicit made me change my thought process, though. He was like, “Bro! When you think about it, your song is so sick that they’re trying to stop it.” I was like, “You know what, Dex? I didn’t even look at it like that.” So I changed my perspective. But it was annoying because they were stopping me from doing gigs, doing shows, and tried to stop DJs from playing it. When I discovered the festival world, though, and found out they actually like to see mosh-pits, it softened the blow a bit. 18 years later and it’s still one of the maddest songs to come out of the UK.
Was the plan always for it to be a posse cut?
It basically stemmed from More Fire Crew. We were going through a little period, in ‘03, when everything was getting shut down. So I said to myself, “We need a rebrand, a switch-up, because things are changing.” These times, Dizzee Rascal’s the guy! Crazy Titch is the guy! Wiley’s the King! And we’d just come from the underground and now we were doing Top Of The Pops and all that… I just decided a rebrand was needed at the time. Then I put the Bizzle at the end of Lethal, instead of Lethal B, and I just upgraded my style a bit. I got back on the radio scene, got back on the underground scene, started building up my name, and then me and Wiley clashed…
—an important clash, at that.
When that happened, the hype and the energy that was around my name, I knew I needed to capitalise on it. So I said, “I want to make a song.” And the mistake I personally thought I made—I don’t know, I can’t personally speak for the rest of the boys in More Fire Crew, but when we made “Oi!”, it was at such a time where it was like crabs in the bucket, everyone trying to get out the hood. So when we made it, it was a bit like, “Yeah! Fuck you man. We’re up! You man tried to stop us, but we’re gone.” I thought that was a mistake because a lot of the people we were saying that to were still in positions that we needed help from. This time around, I said: “Cool.” Me and Wiley had this battle—we were the guys now—and I said to myself, “How can I capitalise on this?” So rather than me just doing a song by myself, I said, “No. I wanna do songs with the mandem and some hot MCs that I rate.” And that’s how “Pow!” came about. If it weren’t for the clash with me and Wiley, it probably would have happened, but it probably wouldn’t have happened like that because it was all strategic for me. I know I needed to have a song out there, so that was the initial idea.
Who—in 2022—would you clash, and why?
Do you know what would be a funny clash? Me and Crazy Titch. He would bring the best out of me because we’re both energy nutcases and I know I would have to be on my AAA game. He’s a schizophrenic on the mic—his ting has always been different, so that would be a fun and interesting clash.
Which “Pow!” video do you prefer: the grainy, Channel U one, or the more polished one you did when you got it signed to EMI?
I think I prefer the first one because that was my little budget and I put that all together. Big up the director, Mo Ali, every single time. He heard the song and he contacted me out the blue. I didn’t have a relationship with him. He was like, “Bro! I will do the video for free. I need to do this video now!” I said, “Nah, I’m gonna pay you, still.” But big him up because he literally went to everybody’s ends; if you watch that first video, all the scenes are different because he went to everyone’s ends to film them—ten different areas. He put a lot of graft in. But yeah, I definitely prefer that one. A bit more nostalgic. The EMI one was nice, though.
“Pow 2011”—we have to talk about that one. It’s not my favourite of the two versions, but it did shake the room when it was released, during a time when grime wasn’t in its hottest state—right before the “grime resurgence.” What impact do you think it had on the scene, and how would you compare the original “Pow!” to “Pow 2011”?
If I can be honest: it was by accident. I can’t remember if it was X Factor or one of those TV shows like Pop Idol that kept going for Christmas No. 1. One day, I was like, “Yo, mandem! Let’s let “Pow!” 2004 go Christmas No. 1” on my Twitter, and then one of the fans said: “No, Biz. What you should do is a new one and make that go No. 1.” I thought that would be too long but, somehow, that tweet just went viral. Then Wiley called me out of nowhere and was like: “I heard you’re doing another ‘Pow!’” I was like, “Nah, nah. I’m trying to hold on to the old one.” And he’s like, “You have to do it, bro. You have to!” At the time, I didn’t get it but the game was soft at that point. It was N-Dubz and all them man. Soft! So Wiley saw the vision. Anyway, I went out that week to some industry party. One brother comes up to me and goes, “What are you doing here?” I was like, “What do you mean, what am I doing here?” He was like, “Bruv! You’re supposed to be finishing the new ‘Pow!’” I was like, “Eh?” Then I started seeing that the people really wanted it. From that, I just hit everyone up. Things took a bit long to sort out, so it had to be released in 2011, but it was initially meant to around Christmas 2010 so we could try and get the No. 1. It’s mad because not long after that, there was a grime resurgence. “German Whip” came, then “That’s Not Me”, then “Shutdown”. People debate if it’s grime or not, but “Rari Workout” came too. I don’t know if people even realise what we actually did.
Grime could do with another “Pow!” right now, don’t you think?
Bro, the amount of people hitting me up saying the same thing is just mad! It’s getting to the point where I’m gonna have to tell people I’m gonna block them if they keep on asking because it’s not so easy to pull off. It would be sick, yes, but let’s move on. Let’s do something else. It’s 10 MCs, 10 egos, 10 managers, and it’s a lot of work. The only way I could probably get away with it now was if I gave it to a label to deal with. If I said, “Listen, I’ll put the song together but you do all the paperwork and sort the fine details with everyone,” then we can try something. But too much is going on right now for that to be so straightforward. Like, the other two were fucking headaches! So imagine what this one would be. “Pow! ‘22” tweets and messages every day. I beg you, allow me! [Laughs] I’ve given you two! It’s going to be 20 years old in two years’ time. I mean, I would like to do something nice for the boys that was on the original—I don’t know what that looks like yet, maybe a show, but it would be nice to do something. But in terms of a brand new “Pow!”, I’m not saying I would never do it, but it’s not at the top of my list of things to do right now. And if I was to do another one, I’d probably have some drill MCs on it as well.
Back to “Oi!” for a second, there’s been much debate over the years about whether that’s a UK garage tune or a grime tune. I personally think it was just before grime came into full fruition, but what’s your opinion on it?
I believe it was in the middle of when garage was kinda fizzling out a bit. We were using all the garage resources to showcase our talent because there wasn’t an actual grime scene when that came out. Grime wasn’t made official until Wiley made “Wot Do U Call It?”, when he basically dissed everyone and said, “Look, we’re not garage—we’re this!” And even then, it was still up for debate what it was actually called. People called it Eski for a while. Then we were classed as grimey garage, but “Oi!” was one of the early grime songs, I’d say, but because it came at the end of the garage era, there’s that debate.
“Before I did music, I was on the streets making money, doing illegal things and that’s where I built up a lot of my business acumen from. When I got into music, I started using some of those skills and I took advantage of my position.”
I don’t know if ‘grindie’, the sound that saw producers like Statik blend elements of grime and indie, gets spoken about enough. It was quite influential in the late 2000s, and you were kind of the face of it.
You’re taking it back! Grindie’s an interesting one because it opened doors for me in the festival market and for them to be more aware of what was going on over this side. But that was all Statik—I can’t even take credit for it. Basically, he was friends with a lot of the bands and the big rock stars over that side, and then he just started making these beats with grime with a bit of indie influences, like the heavy guitars and things like that. Then he started playing them to me and was like, “You should do a tune with these guys.” I’d listen to their stuff and be like, “This is kinda cool. I like energy, that indie/punk-rock vibe.” And then he started taking me to a few shows, and I started seeing it for myself. I saw so many similarities, like the energy, the fuck-the-system attitude and them making music that they want to make. So Statik literally was just connecting the dots and presenting things to me. All of this opened me up to the NME world as well. I made NME’s top five rock stars of the year or some shit [laughs]. It was some mad list and I got on it. That was a lot to do with the whole mix of grime and indie.
Do you miss anything about grime from back in the day?
I miss going radio, pirate radio. I miss the shows as well, like the proper grime shows. Jme’s bringing it back with Grime FM, and it’s a beautiful feeling. But that used to be every week. It was amazing, just linking up, going to a rave, knowing you’re going to mash it up with bare reloads. Yeah, that’s the part I miss. Everyone’s barring together on radio, it was like our school—we were learning new skills, learning from each other. Deja Vu [FM] was man’s classroom! And then we’d go to Sidewinder, Eskimo Dance, Club EQ, Rumble, Stampede to take our exams. We did the training.
Practice hours are very important, and grime MCs always had the upper hand when it came to live shows due to that training on pirate radio. Guys were perfecting their craft without even knowing it. UK rap and drill doesn’t really have that, and I think it’s evident in some artists’ stage presence. What do you think of that?
Firstly, big up all the drillers because they’re taking what we did 20 years ago and pushing things forward in their own way. But that training is important, man. Because the internet can make you blow up so fast, it might be faster than your actual development. And not even just with drill, just with the scene at the moment. But there needs to be a starting point, a middle, and then getting to the position where you can handle it. That’s what will help you last longer in the game. That’s how I did it, anyway. I can step on any stage right now, and I know what I’m doing because I was doing this back in Deja Vu days. Some man’s first gig is probably Wireless Festival; some man have massive songs and they’re put in front of 100,000 people before they’ve performed in front of 100 people. It’s a good achievement, don’t get me wrong, but they need to do the small shows first. It’s not even their fault, because the game right now is moving so fast that they have to keep up with everyone else, especially the legends. I just think having that time to develop, to work on your craft, is super important.
People know Lethal Bizzle as the MC who used his money wisely, to invest and make a lot more of it. Were you always business minded, and what are some of the things that you invested in that people don’t know about?
Before I did music, I was on the streets making money, doing illegal things and that’s where I built up a lot of my business acumen from. Then when I got into music, I started using some of those skills and taking advantage of my position, knowing that—alright, cool, I do this music thing, but there’s other avenues that I can go down as well that’s going to link back to the music. So, firstly, it was pressing up my own records, going to the record store, selling them for, I don’t know, £4. It cost me £1 to make. That’s £3 profit and I’m selling thousands of them. Boom! Alright, cool. I wear clothes. Why don’t I make some of my own? Why am I making other people money? Investigate that. Boom! Done the clothing thing. That led into doing perfume later on. Properties, that’s been something I’ve been onto from early. Sometimes you have to sit back and just think. My dad was also one of the guys telling me from early that this music thing, it comes and it goes. So make sure you invest well. First, he told me to get a house because if all hell breaks loose, at least you’ve got somewhere to live. That just opened my brain up to different opportunities and not limiting myself. Now I’m investing in buildings in Ghana.
You’re in a position where you no longer have to make music to feed yourself and your family, so why do you still do it?
I feel like it’s passion, man. And also, I’m starting to feel like the scene’s uncle a little bit. When I was coming up, I needed someone like me that could pattern and tell me certain things that I needed to know, so I didn’t have to make the mistakes I made. My life is totally different from what it was 20 years ago. I feel like I’m a lot wiser now. Music’s also my therapy… I want to be that guy for people to look up to and be like, “Rah! He’s from the ends, and 20 years on, he’s still doing his thing.” I think that me and my generation have to let these kids know because it’s hard to stick around for two whole decades. Some man that are poppin’ now won’t be here in five or even two years’ time, so I feel like I’m here to help them be around for that and even longer!
Have any artists come to you for financial advice? If so, what are some of the nuggets that you shared?
I don’t wanna bait anyone up, but a lot of man have come to me for advice—not even just for financial advice, but music advice too. Some of the biggest, hottest guys right now have picked up the phone and asked me certain things, and I give them sound advice. I’m always there for that. Like I said, I feel like it’ll be silly for me not to share that information because I think the guys killing it right now need to be on their Ps and Qs as much as ever because the game’s got so big that there’s so much money floating around. Offering a kid a certain amount of money that’s coming from nothing, who doesn’t really understand what they’re signing, can be detrimental to them in the future. So yeah, I’m definitely there to speak and help them out when they need it.
Do you think that you get enough credit for the things you’ve done for the scene, even behind the scenes? I don’t think your name comes up as much as it perhaps should.
No, I don’t think I do. But I’ve kind of accepted it now. I’ve had this weird relationship with the culture. It used to bother me, like 10 years ago, and then I just had to just wear it: Biz, at the end of the day, it is what it is. And I personally feel one of the reasons is because the greatest grime song of all time was made by me and it wasn’t supposed to be me. I wasn’t meant to be the person to make that great song. And I think that, definitely, internally in the scene, I know a lot of man didn’t like that. I just do what I can do, man. The people that are down are down. I feel like a lot of my stuff maybe doesn’t get mentioned, but that’s just how it goes sometimes. All I can do is do my job, be the best person I can be, and keep contributing to the culture. It’s weird, though, because with my brand, I’ve got so many different angles you can connect to me, whether it’s music, business, clothing, whether it’s fucking me being on TV shows—I’ve understood how to utilise all those things. So, regardless of what’s going on, I’m always making sure that I’m working and the brand is staying prominent, even if I ain’t got music out. So the credit thing, I mean, it’s nice to get notoriety, but I’ve just grown to realise that as long as I’m eating well, it is what it is.
